Battery charging issue

[globalrider]

It's what it says. Racist & narrow minded IMO.

Actually, since 1983 (that is 33 years now) I've owned Japanense cars for 26 of them as well as quite a few Japanense motorcycles. So before you go shooting off you stupid mouth in usual fashion, its good to get your FACTS straight, but since you don't have any here are some on battery chargers. I hope it doesn't hurt your narrow minded brain.

As for my avatar, its a joke and funny when you look at the old man waving his hands.

But what did my avatar have anything to do with battery charging and battery chargers? You went off topic shooting from the hip for whatever reason, probably insecurity issues.

But lets get back on topic and talk about product evaluations be it here, any forum and even the ON. The vast majority of consumers are clueless. "my charger is great" It is? Based on what? I am never going to tell you my Optimate or CTEK are "great" and neither are any others at that price point. But they are better than not using a battery maintainer at all.

Then there is that utterly useless voltage monitor with LEDs of different colors...supposedly to tell you if your charging system is working well or not. The thing is a piece of garbage and incredibly the manufacturer knows nothing about vehicle charging.

Why does Battery Tender or CTEK not produce specs that actually mean something.

Here is the one from CTEK. A voltage axis with no values...how effing useful is that?

And this is what it actually does. Once fully charged, it simply turns on and off and repeats. This is not a "pulse" as claimed, not that it matters.

And the Optimate actually has a float mode...

One clown on another forum started a thread "The Last Battery Charger You'll Ever Buy". I mean, these things are like all those weight reducing exercise equipment in our still obese society. Cool looking charger, fancy colors and it even performed a "load" test. Wow a load test...at a whopping 20W or less than 2 amps, how useless is that? I do my load tests at 1/2 the CCA of the battery, a pretty much accepted method...not at 2 amps. LOL

And these battery testers that tell you what the CCA and the Ah are in a snap. Those are conductance testers and I've used them. They never produce the same values as a real load and capacity test and sometimes, they aren't even close.

 

[globalrider]

Which one would that be and which claim(s) does it not meet?

As posted above.

Look at the Optimate. It went right into float mode based on a voltage reached (14.3V) instead of looking for a charge current level which decreases in time when in absorption mode. Normally you would also set a timer internally to end that mode if the current does not trip it into float mode. This just in case you have a problem battery.

The only charger that did extremely well was the Xantrex Truecharge II, but it is expensive and more than your average consumer is willing to spend. Its used by the RV and boating crowd. We tested all parameters in the lab. Not perfect, but damn close.

 

[rxcrider]

The Xantrex Truecharge 2 10a Pricing looks to be inline with the Optimate 7 Select. Both of them are running higher than the Odyssey recommended CTEK MUS 7002, which is 7A max instead of 10A like the other two.

Safe to assume you haven't tested any of the newer Optimate or CTEK chargers to see if they have made improvements?

The Xantrex voltage for AGM falls a bit short of the 14.7 / 13.6 recommended by Odyssey.
Charging Maximum Voltages
Battery Type Absorption (Volts) Float (Volts)
Flooded 14.4 13.5
GEL 14.2 13.8
AGM 14.3 13.4
Lead-Calcium 15.5 13.5

 

[gsaddict]

But what did my avatar have anything to do with battery charging and battery chargers.

It's your opinion on AGMs - it parallels the avtar.
You have made that excessively clear over the years.

 

[globalrider]

It's your opinion on AGMs - it parallels the avtar.
You have made that excessively clear over the years.

So what! Do you have a financial interest in AGMs? People touting things because they are new based on no knowledge of anything. Just look at that thread that goes on ad nauseam on Lithium batteries on ADVrider. What page are they up to now? LOL

 

[globalrider]

Safe to assume you haven't tested any of the newer Optimate or CTEK chargers to see if they have made improvements?

The biggest improvement would be for them to actually publish some specs...like Xantrex does.

The Xantrex voltage for AGM falls a bit short of the 14.7 / 13.6 recommended by Odyssey.

So does BMW's charging system on my R1200 GSA LC which indicates 14.1V on the display (measured 14.3V at the battery) and this model has a YUASA YTZ14S MF AGM.

There is always the CTEK 14.7V setting.

The 10A Xantrex cannot be controlled like the 20, 40 or 60 amp models. A remote module enables the user to select 20, 40, 60, 80 or 100% of the unit's amps. That is important when used with smaller batteries.

 

[PGlaves]

In search of Good Enough

I need seven (7) chargers to keep on bikes stored while we are out riding the continent and not home for 4 months over the summer. And a couple more for four wheeled vehicles. The liklihood that I will buy eight or nine $160 chargers is somewhere between slim, none, and laughable. It simply isn't going to happen. Ever!

We got home a few days ago and all of the bikes and the car and the Jeep all started having been parked with their $20 to $25 chargers. Optimal charging? Probably not. Good enough? Probably!

We live in an imperfect world. Bike charging systems are seldom optimal for batteries. Affordable chargers are often not 100% perfect for a battery. Wet cell batteries evaporate electrolyte. VRLA batteries (AGM and Gel) fracture fragile intercell connectors. Y'all can argue what is optimal till blue in the face. I will pursue "good enough".

 

[gsaddict]

I need seven (7) chargers to keep on bikes stored while we are out riding the continent and not home for 4 months over the summer. And a couple more for four wheeled vehicles. The liklihood that I will buy eight or nine $160 chargers is somewhere between slim, none, and laughable. It simply isn't going to happen. Ever!

We got home a few days ago and all of the bikes and the car and the Jeep all started having been parked with their $20 to $25 chargers. Optimal charging? Probably not. Good enough? Probably!

We live in an imperfect world. Bike charging systems are seldom optimal for batteries. Affordable chargers are often not 100% perfect for a battery. Wet cell batteries evaporate electrolyte. VRLA batteries (AGM and Gel) fracture fragile intercell connectors. Y'all can argue what is optimal till blue in the face. I will pursue "good enough".

Or you get one of these Paul........

https://fortnine.ca/en/battery-tender-10-bank-12v-charger-021-0134

It's even in Canadian Pesos

 

[globalrider]

Optimal charging? Probably not. Good enough? Probably!

I stated that in post #41, Paul. I have 3 Optimates and 2 CTEKs.

I am never going to tell you my Optimate or CTEK are "great" and neither are any others at that price point. But they are better than not using a battery maintainer at all.

 

[Jeff488]

https://fortnine.ca/en/battery-tender-10-bank-12v-charger-021-0134

Hmmm.
It comes with 6 ft. cable(s).
10 vehicles arranged in a 12 foot diameter circle? Probably not.
Remove all batteries from vehicles? How convenient.

 

[globalrider]

https://fortnine.ca/en/battery-tender-10-bank-12v-charger-021-0134

Hmmm.
It comes with 6 ft. cable(s).
10 vehicles arranged in a 12 foot diameter circle? Probably not.
Remove all batteries from vehicles? How convenient.

Certainly not very convenient for our application, but those kind of set-ups are usually meant as charging stations where all batteries are on a bench. Garages and battery suppliers would use them.

 

[Jeff488]

Guess I should have used the sarcasm emoji thingie.

 

[rxcrider]

There are sae extension cables like the 20' one from battery tender. My charger is sitting on a shelf next to an outlet and the cable reaches every bike in the garage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rxcrider]

Apparently there is something smart about a battery tender, even if they are still selling the same chargers they did 10 years ago. My BT Plus is apparently able to sense the type of battery during the initialization phase. It charged an Odyssey PC680 at 14.7 V and a FLA battery for an R1150RT at 14.4 V. Once the batteries reached a full charge, the voltage dropped to 13.2 for the float on both batteries. That is lower than the 13.6 that Odyssey calls for, but the the peak of the bulk charge and the absorption voltage were right on target. I contacted Battery Tender to ask about this behavior since it isn't described in their literature. They didn't give details about how it makes the determination, but stated that it is designed to do so. The BT plus also has temperature compensation and can increase the charge voltage to as high as 14.9. Float is always 13.2 V, regardless. According to the person I was chatting with from Battery Tender, the Junior and Power Tender follow the same logic at different charge rates, but don't have the temperature compensation. For me, this means I've been nicer to my Odyssey that I thought by using a charger that bumps up the charge voltage to 14.7 for it and taking it off the charger once I see it go into float mode where the voltage is incorrect.

I'm going to get a new charger anyway, mostly because I ordered it last week before poking around this weekend. I opted for the Optimate 7 Select to have a 10a charger for larger batteries. I opted for it over CTEK because of the higher charge rate and their use of SAE terminals that I already have on few batteries. After talking to a rep from Tecmate, the main points of difference between it and the CTEK MUS7002 were 10A vs 7A, how the bulk charge cycle ramps up, maybe some variation in their desulfation cycles and the Optimate lacking CTEK's reconditioning mode. At a continuous 15.8V, CTEK's reconditioning mode sounds more like a balancing mode and is accompanied by a cautionalry statement about overheating or boiling dry. Optimate's ramp up in the bulk charge mode limits the amperage initially, checking for a change in voltage at the battery and halts the amperage ramp when the desired voltage change rate is reached. This allows them to charge smaller batteries with their 10A than CTEK rates their 7A for. Hopefully I made a good choice.

 

[globalrider]

My BT Plus is apparently able to sense the type of battery during the initialization phase.

It can't and neither can any other battery charger. All any charger can do is see battery voltage and act accordingly to end charging and switch to a maintenance mode, etc. The Xantrex can but this is done by the user.

CTEK's reconditioning mode sounds more like a balancing mode and is accompanied by a cautionary statement about overheating or boiling dry.

That is exactly what it is. It takes battery voltage up to balance all the cells. In the process, some cells are overcharged (and gas) while the other cells catch up. I do this using my HP power supply. It can be done to conventional batteries that you can top up and should never be done to any VRLA (AGM or GEL) battery.

 

[rxcrider]

It can't and neither can any other battery charger. All any charger can do is see battery voltage and act accordingly to end charging and switch to a maintenance mode, etc.

Any idea why it would stop at 14.4 for the FLA and 14.7 for the Odyssey AGM if they don't have some sort of logic in it? Batteries were charged back to back on the same day and temperature was nearly the same, maybe a touch cooler when charging the FLA. I went back to the Odyssey after the FLA and it went to 14.7 again. Could they just be watching for the voltage to spike and at a certain rate of increase, they select a cut off point?

 

[globalrider]

Any idea why it would stop at 14.4 for the FLA and 14.7 for the Odyssey AGM if they don't have some sort of logic in it?

Did you measure this with a DMM with a MAX hold feature?

I ask because as soon as the final voltage is reached in the Absorption phase, those battery maintainers switch to a Float mode. You'd have to sit around monitoring that voltage.

And if they can sense the type of battery their charger is charging, why do they have a BT Plus Gel. Just make one charger, sense the battery type (which they can't) and have the micro-processor select the correct charge algorithm.

 

[rxcrider]

On the Odyssey, I had the battery tender voltage meter clipped to the terminals and was watching it as it switched from bulk to absorption. The voltage climbed rapidly just before reaching 14.7 where it stopped and then switched to absorption. After a few seconds the meter dropped to 14.6. I checked it with my Fluke and got 14.67. I checked it a few more times during absorption and the results were the same. When it indicated a full charge and switched to float, the gauge read 13.2V and I disconnected the battery.

The FLA battery was basically the same story at 14.4 volts for the absorption phase except that I missed the transition from bulk so i don't know what it peaked at.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PGlaves]

I admire Global Rider's expertise in his area. I truly do. But i am a pragtimist. I have Schumacker chargers. I have Battery Tender Chargers. I have several other brands. I have about 10 such devices. NONE are optimal. I just try to keep 9 motorcycles and three 4 wheelers running, and starting. I can't afford $150-$160 chargers. So I try to keep stuff ready to start. Sometimes it is gold - sometimes it is @#$$%. Such is life. If I had one bike or one car then I might try to find the optimum. Otherwise, I look for adequate. Will it start?????

 

[akbeemer]

I admire Global Rider's expertise in his area. I truly do. But i am a pragtimist. I have Schumacker chargers. I have Battery Tender Chargers. I have several other brands. I have about 10 such devices. NONE are optimal. I just try to keep 9 motorcycles and three 4 wheelers running, and starting. I can't afford $150-$160 chargers. So I try to keep stuff ready to start. Sometimes it is gold - sometimes it is @#$$%. Such is life. If I had one bike or one car then I might try to find the optimum. Otherwise, I look for adequate. Will it start?????

Not letting an excessive quest for perfection get in the way of good enough.