What does the looming ICE ban mean for BMW motorcycles?

[oldcamper]

I’ve been reading about the upcoming ban on internal combustion engines across much of Europe and many US states. 2030 isn’t that far away, but if the ban also applies to motorcycles it will mean a huge change for manufacturers like BMW. City scooter runabouts and e-bicycles are one thing, but long range highway motorcycles are quite another. It’s hard for me to imagine a battery powered touring bike that compares with currently available models. Is it possible there simply won’t be any after 2030?

Given their existing customer base, I think the reality is going to be difficult for BMW to deal with. Do the new laws allow for exemptions like trucks, trains, construction, farming, or recreational vehicles?

 

[Omega Man]

My guess, the date will be pushed forward another 10 years when electric vehicles become more feasible/affordable and they figure out where all the electricity is going to come from.
OM

 

[gregfeeler]

For my part, I expect that before any such bans are enforced, those proposing them will realize that it will be impossible to create the required infrastructure and production capacity to convert fully to only electric vehicles.

Such bans are politically motivated on several levels, mixing self-interest in appearing to be "fighting for the future" in addition recognizing the fundament reality that our current science says we must reduce the production of hydrocarbons to reduce the rate of climate change.

However, "clean" electricity must be generated somehow and solar and wind will never supply a sufficient or reliable supply. The balance has to come for either coal/petroleum fired power plants, or nuclear. There is also the looming conflict between China and the rest of the world on who is going to be able to produce EV batteries. Our current EV battery technology requires large amounts of rare earth minerals and China has by far the world's largest supply. The Chinese Communist government has made it clear that their strategy is "Made in China" rather than import finished goods or export raw materials. I don't see these issues being sorted in only eight years.

This all reminds me of a quote who's source I don't remember: "Everything should happen as fast as possible, but no faster."

 

[MCMXCIVRS]

I agree with OM, these target dates are unrealistic and will end up not being met. I'm not against electric vehicles, I just don't think the development is going to happen as quickly as politicians think they can force it too. There are a lot of major problems to solve beyond just improving battery life. There's issues of materials for batteries and the consequences of obtaining those on the environment as well as the increased generation of power needed to supply the increasing number of electric vehicles. Most of these targets are just political posturing, but they may serve to push the industry forward more quickly than without them, just not as quickly as they want to pretend.

 

[tsconver]

For my part, I expect that before any such bans are enforced, those proposing them will realize that it will be impossible to create the required infrastructure and production capacity to convert fully to only electric vehicles.

Such bans are politically motivated on several levels, mixing self-interest in appearing to be "fighting for the future" in addition recognizing the fundament reality that our current science says we must reduce the production of hydrocarbons to reduce the rate of climate change.

However, "clean" electricity must be generated somehow and solar and wind will never supply a sufficient or reliable supply. The balance has to come for either coal/petroleum fired power plants, or nuclear. There is also the looming conflict between China and the rest of the world on who is going to be able to produce EV batteries. Our current EV battery technology requires large amounts of rare earth minerals and China has by far the world's largest supply. The Chinese Communist government has made it clear that their strategy is "Made in China" rather than import finished goods or export raw materials. I don't see these issues being sorted in only eight years.

This all reminds me of a quote who's source I don't remember: "Everything should happen as fast as possible, but no faster."

Not sure where your data on mineral reserves comes from. But China does not control what is needed for Li batteries. You need Ni, Mn, Co, and Li. Chile has by far the biggest Li reserve in the world, China is 4th. The Congo has the most cobalt and China is not even in the top 5. Australia and Indonesia control the Ni and China is 5th. Mn is South Africa and China is 6th.

The biggest issue is the grid. I know Musk even says the grids cannot support 100% EV, they cannot even support current demands.

 

[Omega Man]

And.....The "Not in my back yard" group are going to have to be dealt with-

https://whdh.com/news/watch-video-captures-massive-wind-turbine-demolition-in-falmouth/

Large open spaces such as Arizona where there is sun most of the time have/show promise for solar. Here in the Northeast, it's iffy. I have been running a solar experiment here for some 15 years. Included in the setup is a large voltmeter connected to an angle panel. I can almost tell the time of day (factoring the time of year) by the shown output on the meter.
I pity the locals that have installed solar on their roofs. Any gain should be held in a separate account to compensate for the additional cost that a renewal of their roof will involve.

If, in my opinion, the real solution is discovered, consumers will flock to it and taxpayers won't have to subsidize the process.



OM

 

[gregfeeler]

Not sure where your data on mineral reserves comes from. But China does not control what is needed for Li batteries. You need Ni, Mn, Co, and Li. Chile has by far the biggest Li reserve in the world, China is 4th. The Congo has the most cobalt and China is not even in the top 5. Australia and Indonesia control the Ni and China is 5th. Mn is South Africa and China is 6th.

The biggest issue is the grid. I know Musk even says the grids cannot support 100% EV, they cannot even support current demands.

Your point about rare earth mineral sources is well taken. This article says that China has the world's largest supply of "rare earth" minerals take as a whole category: https://investingnews.com/daily/res...-earth-investing/rare-earth-reserves-country/. Some of these materials are also needed for the electric motors in EV's, in addition to the batteries. According to this same source, the US is #6 in reserves, but given the extensive environmental regulations on extraction industries, I would suspect much of these materials will always remain in the ground.

I completely agree with you that production and delivery of electricity is the biggest hurdle. I just hope that hydrogen engines get some attention to stave off an all-electric future.

 

[robsryder]

My thinking about all this talk of banning sales of internal combustion engines (ICE) is to help push the development of both electric and hydrogen powered vehicles.

Insofar as affecting my riding of BMW (and/or other) motorcycles goes - first of all, I have to get there (ain't no guarantees in life, I will focus on 2023, then onwards). Next, one should keep in mind that the US is going to go to the metric system real soon. I understand that George Washington was an advocate.

https://time.com/3908881/history-us-metric-conversion/

Without some significant advancements in energy storage I do not see electric motorcycles as being viable for touring. Perhaps for local commuters. I do think that sales of electric cars and trucks will continue to grow. It will be interesting to observe the impact on our electrical generation infrastructure. As far as e-bikes (the pedal type) go, I am hugely in favor of these. I have obtained such and really like the extra help when going up a hill. I don't worry about the range of an e-bike; it is enough for me, just need to re-charge periodically.

I have more confidence in a hydrogen-based propulsion system being viable once the distribution infrastructure is established. Some folks worry about the potential explosion hazard from use of hydrogen. But, I've already reconciled myself to having a flammable and dangerous (carcinogenic) hazard between my legs (and by this I am referring to the gas tank!!).

 

[Omega Man]

Hindenburg fuel systems LLC (kidding) has a Hydrogen fill station locally. Never seen anyone use it. Waste Management uses natural gas to fuel the trash pickup (10 wheelers with air tag axel). Once they got the bugs out of the system, they seem to be motoring along just fine.
OM

 

[88bmwjeff]

IMO, going all electric is only looking at only vehicles and is ignoring the electricity generation and disposal of electric. I don't view electric vehicles as zero emission vehicles, but rather emission transfer vehicles. Given the various ways energy is created, some electricity is less environmental than others. Until we can generate more "clean" energy and transmit it safely (Keep in mind, I have to deal with PG&E constantly starting wildfires-but that's another issue), I think all electric vehicles will remain a dream/fantasy/unobtainable (choose your word here).

On a side note with regards to solar photovoltaic panels.... California recently classified old panels as hazardous waste in 2020. In a pure bit of irony, getting approval to process the hazardous solar panels can be difficult and costly. One recycler of solar panels said "California’s rigorous permitting system for toxic materials makes it exceedingly difficult to set up shop." Given the push California has for renewable "green" energy, one would think they would make it possible to recycle the material once removed. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-07-14/california-rooftop-solar-pv-panels-recycling-danger

FYI, roof top solar panels are typically installed over a new roof and would be there for 25-30 years. The panels would have to be removed to reroof the building. While the degradation rate is relatively small in the 25-30 years, advancements in technology would make it less desirable to reinstall them, since more efficient panels would be available. Consequently, all those panels that have been installed over the 20ish years will need to be recycled.

My take in the end, there's still a lot more for us to learn, but the most important thing is to reduce our demand for energy via more efficient vehicles, lights, appliances, etc. Ooops, ended up on a soap box here a bit, sorry.

 

[stevenrankin]

Government

Politicians write these things, and the next batch of politicians change them. In our country the voting public supports by voting in the politicians. So far, the dream of a total CO2 free world has not really impacted on the average person's wallet.

It will be interesting to see how all this goes as the deadlines get closer. As for my neighborhood I see no effort being made by my utility company to augment the coming drain on the power grid that every one having an electric car and household will put upon the grid. St.

 

[MCMXCIVRS]

China's dominance of the world battery manufacturing is not just a matter of having domestic sources of all of the required minerals. They also have much of the worldwide sources under their control through partnerships with governments and by Chinese companies (often state owned) having invested in other countries thereby securing rights to those minerals. Rare earth minerals are only a small part of this control. They also dominate the mineral processing and refining along with the actual production of batteries. They've been busy at this strategy for decades and it will be hard to compete, but not impossible. It will not happen quickly or easily.

 

[kbasa]

Hindenburg fuel systems LLC (kidding) has a Hydrogen fill station locally. Never seen anyone use it. Waste Management uses natural gas to fuel the trash pickup (10 wheelers with air tag axel). Once they got the bugs out of the system, they seem to be motoring along just fine.
OM

Interesting comments across this thread.

WRT Hydrogen vehicles, there are three Toyota Mirais in my neighborhood of about 100 homes. One of the owners has a pretty sweet small block '65 Mustang. I've seen them around for at least a couple if not three years.

WRT to EVs, more and more homes in my neighborhood are generating power on their roof and are now no longer tied to the grid. On my street of 12 homes, currently 4 have panels and 3 of them have EVs they charge off the roof. They have a variety of storage systems: two Tesla Powerwalls and one Generac storage system.

On my street alone, there are 6 EVs and a couple plug in hybrids. That's a 25% adoption rate just on my street.

Considering how those EVs are being fueled, I have a hard time considering their use as "emissions transfer" unless you consider the creation of the panels and the vehicle itself. There's no coal powering these vehicles at all, nor are they getting juiced from the grid.

Say what you want, but it's not economically advantageous to generate power from solar vs. fossil fuels and utilities are adopting this for generation.

In anticipation of the pushback, let's address some of this right up front:

- It's not great for long distance travel yet, primarily due to lengthy, though rapidly shortening, charge times and highly variable infrastructure
- No, the EV pick ups aren't great for towing, but for just about anything else, they're pretty terrific. 500hp truck anyone that will run your campsite all weekend or power your house for 3 days when the power goes out? Bidirectional charging is becoming a thing, so once the juice is in your vehicle, you can use it to run your house or even charge your other EV.

I'm sure there are going to be other objections, kind of working a zero sum here, so I figured I'd help you all out. Let's see if we can get a BINGO.

More to the point of the thread, here's the relevant text for California's 2035 zero emissions requirements: The rule establishes a year-by-year roadmap so that by 2035 100% of new cars and light trucks sold in California will be zero-emission vehicles, including plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.

No mention of motorcycles, so y'all can relax. I'll be nearly 80 when we stop selling ICE cars and presumably dead by the time we stop with motorcycles.

Also, let's address this rare earth thing people get hung up on. Solid state batteries are coming: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/0...-rare-pricey-metals-in-solid-state-batteries/

We're at an early point in the development of EVs. If I could compare our current state with previous automotive development stages, we're in the Brass Era. They're functional, but still have significant limitations. Vehicles in production now, especially those with unidirectional charge 400V systems will not be in production in a couple years. Current state of the art EVs are running on 800v architecture which greatly enhances charge time. The Ioniq 6 is showing 80% charge in 15 minutes, adding about 275 to 300 miles of range in that time, so progress continues. It has an 800V architecture, bidirectional current flow and gets 340 miles on a full charge.

The vehicles are getting there and in 5 years, we'll be way further down the road for range, charge rates and especially affordability. The IRA is providing financial incentives for Americans to stop sucking the grid teat and create, store and use their own power. As electric motor technology continues to develop (check out the motors not using permanent magnets, as an example of this development underway that will realize even greater efficiency at point of consumption), platform capabilities increase and ranges get longer, remember that even the EV vehicles of today are getting something like the equivalent of 100+mpg.

A friend put a home system in when he lived in New Hampshire. He ran his heat and AC, lights and everything else, including charging his Chevy Bolt at that northern latitude. Some folks will complain about trees, etc., but if someone showed up at your New England home and said, "ya know, if you take these trees out over here, you'll never have to buy gasoline or fill your fuel tank with oil every fall", who wouldn't take that?

FWIW, he's moved to Colorado and has done the exact same thing at his new place. No grid tie and the only gasoline he buys is for his dirt bikes and his pickup truck to drag them around the Rockies. For daily use? He uses no gasoline at all.

Yeah, the chart's a little snarky, but go back and read the thread. Have we heard them all yet?

 

[kbasa]

China's dominance of the world battery manufacturing is not just a matter of having domestic sources of all of the required minerals. They also have much of the worldwide sources under their control through partnerships with governments and by Chinese companies (often state owned) having invested in other countries thereby securing rights to those minerals. Rare earth minerals are only a small part of this control. They also dominate the mineral processing and refining along with the actual production of batteries. They've been busy at this strategy for decades and it will be hard to compete, but not impossible. It will not happen quickly or easily.

You realize, of course that in the wake of the IRA, multiple companies are now investing billions of dollars in domestic batter production for EVs. The bill is built to provide incentives to build batteries here in the US.

Here's Ford: https://media.ford.com/content/ford...lead-americas-shift-to-electric-vehicles.html

Here's GM, they're making their biggest investment in infrastructure ever: https://www.forbes.com/sites/edgars...te-for-ev-battery-production/?sh=5d4984962908

And if one is concerned about recycling, one needs to learn about Redwood Materials, which GM has invested into: https://www.redwoodmaterials.com In particular, pay attention to what they're doing - they're completely recycling batteries and cranking new ones out the other end of their plant.

Big changes in energy creation, use and storage are at hand. We can drag our feet and try to pretend it isn't going to happen, but by all signs, it's coming and it's already economically viable to generate power at home.

 

[Omega Man]

IRA- The Inflation Recovery Act? Government funding? Really making taxpayers fund research that will develop technology only really economically comfortable people can benefit from.
OM

 

[kbasa]

IRA- The Inflation Recovery Act? Government funding? Really making taxpayers fund research that will develop technology only really economically comfortable people can benefit from.
OM

If you're inferring that normal Americans are paying for this, the answer is no. Taxes have been increased on corporations that weren't paying taxes at all and high earners making over $400K/year. For the rest of us, there is no impact.

As far as cost considerations, a friend put a full solar array on his house, including storage and a new roof for about $30K. He got significantly discounted funding from the feds, which included the roof. His cost for the system is less than what he paid PG&E every month.

If you haven't, and that appears to be true based on your comment, you should really read a synopsis of the Act so you know how it's paid for and what the intentions of it are. Add in the CHIPS act, which has also precipitated literal billions of dollars of investment in American facilities to produce chips domestically and we're going to see a very different economy than we have for the last 40 years.

Pertinent calculus in a nice one pager: https://www.democrats.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/inflation_reduction_act_one_page_summary.pdf

 

[pglaves]

The best selling car brand in the EU right now: Tesla

New model price target (I know it will go up some): $25,000

As for those batteries, and chips, and a whole lot of other things we need to bring that kind of manufacturing back to the United States and Europe.

 

[gregfeeler]

Interesting comments across this thread.

WRT Hydrogen vehicles, there are three Toyota Mirais in my neighborhood of about 100 homes. One of the owners has a pretty sweet small block '65 Mustang. I've seen them around for at least a couple if not three years.

WRT to EVs, more and more homes in my neighborhood are generating power on their roof and are now no longer tied to the grid. On my street of 12 homes, currently 4 have panels and 3 of them have EVs they charge off the roof. They have a variety of storage systems: two Tesla Powerwalls and one Generac storage system.

On my street alone, there are 6 EVs and a couple plug in hybrids. That's a 25% adoption rate just on my street.

Considering how those EVs are being fueled, I have a hard time considering their use as "emissions transfer" unless you consider the creation of the panels and the vehicle itself. There's no coal powering these vehicles at all, nor are they getting juiced from the grid.

Say what you want, but it's not economically advantageous to generate power from solar vs. fossil fuels and utilities are adopting this for generation.

In anticipation of the pushback, let's address some of this right up front:

- It's not great for long distance travel yet, primarily due to lengthy, though rapidly shortening, charge times and highly variable infrastructure
- No, the EV pick ups aren't great for towing, but for just about anything else, they're pretty terrific. 500hp truck anyone that will run your campsite all weekend or power your house for 3 days when the power goes out? Bidirectional charging is becoming a thing, so once the juice is in your vehicle, you can use it to run your house or even charge your other EV.

I'm sure there are going to be other objections, kind of working a zero sum here, so I figured I'd help you all out. Let's see if we can get a BINGO.

More to the point of the thread, here's the relevant text for California's 2035 zero emissions requirements: The rule establishes a year-by-year roadmap so that by 2035 100% of new cars and light trucks sold in California will be zero-emission vehicles, including plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.

No mention of motorcycles, so y'all can relax. I'll be nearly 80 when we stop selling ICE cars and presumably dead by the time we stop with motorcycles.

Also, let's address this rare earth thing people get hung up on. Solid state batteries are coming: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/0...-rare-pricey-metals-in-solid-state-batteries/

We're at an early point in the development of EVs. If I could compare our current state with previous automotive development stages, we're in the Brass Era. They're functional, but still have significant limitations. Vehicles in production now, especially those with unidirectional charge 400V systems will not be in production in a couple years. Current state of the art EVs are running on 800v architecture which greatly enhances charge time. The Ioniq 6 is showing 80% charge in 15 minutes, adding about 275 to 300 miles of range in that time, so progress continues. It has an 800V architecture, bidirectional current flow and gets 340 miles on a full charge.

The vehicles are getting there and in 5 years, we'll be way further down the road for range, charge rates and especially affordability. The IRA is providing financial incentives for Americans to stop sucking the grid teat and create, store and use their own power. As electric motor technology continues to develop (check out the motors not using permanent magnets, as an example of this development underway that will realize even greater efficiency at point of consumption), platform capabilities increase and ranges get longer, remember that even the EV vehicles of today are getting something like the equivalent of 100+mpg.

A friend put a home system in when he lived in New Hampshire. He ran his heat and AC, lights and everything else, including charging his Chevy Bolt at that northern latitude. Some folks will complain about trees, etc., but if someone showed up at your New England home and said, "ya know, if you take these trees out over here, you'll never have to buy gasoline or fill your fuel tank with oil every fall", who wouldn't take that?

FWIW, he's moved to Colorado and has done the exact same thing at his new place. No grid tie and the only gasoline he buys is for his dirt bikes and his pickup truck to drag them around the Rockies. For daily use? He uses no gasoline at all.

Yeah, the chart's a little snarky, but go back and read the thread. Have we heard them all yet?

Dave, I think the point of the original post was asking about the practicality of stopping all ICE vehicle sales by 2030, not that EV technology and the required supporting infrastructure won't eventually reach acceptable performance level.

All your information is highly optimistic as it always is from missionaries of any new tech, and I expect the eventual reality to be at about 60% of the projections, which in the end will probably be good enough. However, I find it tiresome to keep hearing cheap shots at Boomers. That devalues the comments of others in the conversation. There are many very legitimate concerns with an EV world - for example, the only example you gave of how all these EV's will be powered was a few friends who had the resources to go fully solar. That will work for a few, but how is that going to work in the inner cities with nothing but high-rise apartment buildings? And, although you dismiss "range anxiety", I suppose, because you live in an urban environment, where I live it's a very real thing and it will be years before EV charging stations can replace the current network of gasoline stations.

The facts are that EVs are being promoted not because they are the best replacement technology for ICE vehicles, but because they are the first ones to market and are now being promoted and subsidized with taxpayer dollars by EV manufactures and Progressive (in the political meaning) governments. Skepticism and wisdom are both earned though experience. If we are going to subsidize a new technology, I think we should spend some of that money identifying the best options before making an irrevocable commitment to a one with so many inherent limitations.

 

[Omega Man]

Dave, I think the point of the original post was asking about the practicality of stopping all ICE vehicle sales by 2030, not that EV technology and the required supporting infrastructure won't eventually reach acceptable performance level.

All your information is highly optimistic as it always is from missionaries of any new tech, and I expect the eventual reality to be at about 60% of the projections, which in the end will probably be good enough. However, I find it tiresome to keep hearing cheap shots at Boomers. That devalues the comments of others in the conversation. There are many very legitimate concerns with an EV world - for example, the only example you gave of how all these EV's will be powered was a few friends who had the resources to go fully solar. That will work for a few, but how is that going to work in the inner cities with nothing but high-rise apartment buildings? And, although you dismiss "range anxiety", I suppose, because you live in an urban environment, where I live it's a very real thing and it will be years before EV charging stations can replace the current network of gasoline stations.

The facts are that EVs are being promoted not because they are the best replacement technology for ICE vehicles, but because they are the first ones to market and are now being promoted and subsidized with taxpayer dollars by EV manufactures and Progressive (in the political meaning) governments. Skepticism and wisdom are both earned though experience. If we are going to subsidize a new technology, I think we should spend some of that money identifying the best options before making an irrevocable commitment to a one with so many inherent limitations.

Eloquently stated.
OM

 

[kbasa]

Dave, I think the point of the original post was asking about the practicality of stopping all ICE vehicle sales by 2030, not that EV technology and the required supporting infrastructure won't eventually reach acceptable performance level.

All your information is highly optimistic as it always is from missionaries of any new tech, and I expect the eventual reality to be at about 60% of the projections, which in the end will probably be good enough. However, I find it tiresome to keep hearing cheap shots at Boomers. That devalues the comments of others in the conversation. There are many very legitimate concerns with an EV world - for example, the only example you gave of how all these EV's will be powered was a few friends who had the resources to go fully solar. That will work for a few, but how is that going to work in the inner cities with nothing but high-rise apartment buildings? And, although you dismiss "range anxiety", I suppose, because you live in an urban environment, where I live it's a very real thing and it will be years before EV charging stations can replace the current network of gasoline stations.

The facts are that EVs are being promoted not because they are the best replacement technology for ICE vehicles, but because they are the first ones to market and are now being promoted and subsidized with taxpayer dollars by EV manufactures and Progressive (in the political meaning) governments. Skepticism and wisdom are both earned though experience. If we are going to subsidize a new technology, I think we should spend some of that money identifying the best options before making an irrevocable commitment to a one with so many inherent limitations.

Thanks for that. Some comments:

• sales of cars and light trucks <8500 lbs. will end by 2030 in California. Note that GMC introduced the Silverado EV and they're getting 500 orders every day for their first edition, which will be a $100K truck. Following models will be in line with current truck pricing. The Ford Lightning is sold out for a year, if memory serves.
• I am also a Boomer and we deserve some cheap shots once in a while. Regardless of the title, the squares are all accurate.
• Resources to go solar at your house are about the price of a used Corolla and then you never have to pay an electric bill again. If you go EV, you can get rid of most of your gasoline consumption. I have 8 ICE vehicles. I love them. But I'd rather thrash a $5000 used Nissan Leaf around town on "gas" I got off my roof than my truck. How much would gas cost for a year of daily driving? A couple thousand dollars? More? Still got the other stuff when it's time to venture out.
• The urban issue shouldn't be a barrier to the other 60% of the country moving away from gasoline. Watch as urban condos and apartments just add chargers in the basement powered by locations like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oBKzQjFGQM Panels are roughly adhering to Moore's law, which I'm sure you're familiar with. My employer in Tempe put panels as sun shades in the parking garage and then ran the building off of it using battery storage. That included our data center. From the parking lot shades.
• Newer EVs have a 350ish mile range and are going from 0 - 80% charging in 15 minutes. How many miles can you go on your Kbike on a tank and do you spend more than 15 minutes at a gas stop if you've just burned a tank? When was the last time you drove that many miles in your normal day?

I love my ICE vehicles. But I also recognize that as I move to retirement I have two highly volatile costs: property taxes and energy costs. I can deal with the taxes here on my property because of the way this state's tax laws work, but if I can largely reduce my reliance on a highly volatile commodity that's subject to global influences, I would be wise to do so.

There's a notion that we have to continue the energy generation model we've used for the last century. When the infrastructure goes, you get those fires we've had not only here in CA, but across the west. I've had electricity provided in the past by "community power" systems. They generated electricity locally and sold it to the entire town. If you look at solar farms like the one above, why wouldn't it sensible to bend the model to community generation systems?

Anyway, here's a link that might be helpful. Pay attention to what's being offered. https://rmi.org/four-ways-the-infla...t-to-a-cleaner-more-affordable-energy-future/

It's going to push us over the tipping point really quickly. We have lots of EVs here. There are 6 on my street from 3 manufacturers, including Kia and VW. I can be, as someone described me, "pollyannaish", which is often fair, but I think that with the IRA in place and solar power now making financial sense at the individual level, we're right at the tipping point.

Consider it on this long established model for technology. We're at the point where we get ready to jump the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, don't you think?

Car and Driver thinks were just about there: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39998609/electric-car-sales-usa/

It's coming. Plus, some of them are stupid fast, which ought to light any gear head.