The Tarnished Blue and White Roundel - Iron Butt Rally Epilog

[flash412]

A "Class Issue" of Failures

In the industry in which I toil, we watch failures carefully. Please understand that if I had three identical failures of the same part in an eleven-day period, I would be VERY concerned and take immediate remedial action. My sample size is more like one hundred thousand units, not the (approximately) one hundred BMW R-bikes in the Iron Butt Rally. A three percent failure rate in an eleven day period is statistically HUGE. Extrapolate it... 3% EVERY 11 days means that it will take less than four months for 100% of the units to fail. I realize that this is playing games with the statistics. ("Lies, damned lies, and statistics.") But the fact remains, at least three rear ends died and two transmissions died out of about 100 bikes. That sucks. That is what is called a CLASS failure issue.

Everyone who has suffered a BMW rear end or transmission failure should contact the NHTSB. If BMW won't fix it and BMW won't listen to the MOA, maybe the United States Government can convince them that they are selling products which are unacceptable for the purpose for which they are sold.

BMW no longer produces RELIABLE long distance motorcycles.

 

[REBECCAV]

According to http://www.ironbuttrally.com/IBR/2007.cfm?DocID=30

Several riders had serious problems today that were unrelated to tech inspection and check-in. Richard Buber's 2002 R1150RT is a sick puppy. The transmission began failing on his ride to Chesterfield. Several people of have been trying valiantly to arrange for an emergency transplant. The latest word is that a replacement transmission will arrive tomorrow and transplant surgery will be performed.

Richard ended up riding on and finishing on the RT without a transmission transplant and without any problems on the road.

 

[godzilla]

BMW no longer produces RELIABLE long distance motorcycles.

I have had my heart set on a new or at least almost new R1200GS or Adventure, but not for about 3 years. I have been concerned about the dealer network and this whole FD thing has me reconsidering. I mean I look at my ancient K100 and know that that bike is a proven machine. Other than the stupid instrument cluster, she is fine with over 140K and 22 years. And now I read about new bikes having these issues?

So when the time comes, I'll have to really think about getting my dream bike. Maybe I'll have to move to some other brand; there are plenty out there. Or maybe I'll use the $20K and 'restore' my old K100 and ride her forever.

Point being is I am having second thoughts about BMW's reputation for what they cost. BMWNA should take note...

 

[Stuff2c]

personal experiance

My personal experience with final drives.
05 R1200GS 24k miles...NO Problems @ all
05 R1200RT 12k miles...NO Problems @ all
05 R1200GS 600 miles final drive replaced @ first service...17k miles to date and NO more Problems with the final drive.
I am having a brake pulsing issue, but like every other BMW i've owned BMW has always taken care of the problem.
There were a couple of occasions in the past that a GOOD dealer made a huge difference. The late BMW of Orlando (previous owner) and the present BMW of Tampa.


The BIG problem (according to my bride ) is writing a check each time

I rode my first R1200GS to Alaska and back and never thought twice about the reliability of the bike 15k miles in 28 days.
stop your worrying and buy the bike you like...internet weiners...jeeezzz

 

[flash412]

When has Honda had a problem they did not immediately address? Remember when there was a recall because some Goldwing frames broke?

When has Kawaski or Yamaha had a problem that they did not address? Heck, I've never even heard of any sort of multiple-failures issue with Concours or FJs.

Meanwhile, BMW repeatedly insists that they make perfekt motorcycles and it is only defective owners and defective riders that have problems. Sure, BMW EVENTUALLY gets around to fixing most issues. But they NEVER admit a problem.

Surging and stalling and the dual-spark plug solution is a prime example. Nevermind the R-bikes. This is especially true for the F650, where BMW somehow "invented" dual-spark a couple years after the initial fuel injected F650s which were single spark ran like crap. BMW seemed to have forgotten the first six YEARS of production of carbureted bikes (designed and built by Aprilia) that had two spark plugs.

Go ahead and drink der Kool-Aide.
Debating religion is like trying to teach a pig to sing.

BMW is doing what Harley did in the AMF years. They are trying to make the cheapest product that they can and see if it will still sell. The Quants apparently want to kill off the motorcycle division while reaping maximum returns in the process. At BMW's present rate of ignoring customers' issues, URALs will soon be more reliable than BMWs. Which is funny in a sad way.

 

[petepeterson]

In the industry in which I toil, we watch failures carefully. Please understand that if I had three identical failures of the same part in an eleven-day period, I would be VERY concerned and take immediate remedial action. My sample size is more like one hundred thousand units, not the (approximately) one hundred BMW R-bikes in the Iron Butt Rally. A three percent failure rate in an eleven day period is statistically HUGE. Extrapolate it... 3% EVERY 11 days means that it will take less than four months for 100% of the units to fail. I realize that this is playing games with the statistics. ("Lies, damned lies, and statistics.") But the fact remains, at least three rear ends died and two transmissions died out of about 100 bikes. That sucks. That is what is called a CLASS failure issue.

Everyone who has suffered a BMW rear end or transmission failure should contact the NHTSB. If BMW won't fix it and BMW won't listen to the MOA, maybe the United States Government can convince them that they are selling products which are unacceptable for the purpose for which they are sold.

BMW no longer produces RELIABLE long distance motorcycles.

You know your high drama and extremely exaggerated claims doesn't help much........ BMW's as reliable today as they were 35 years ago, infact they are far more reliable now more so than ever!!!!!

Stop with the 3% BS Jeez There are others just like you spreading BS and for some reason people believe you.......

Most threads have been saying 4% failure rate for the last couple of years but that is just stupid..... Last year BMW sold a little over one hundred thousand bikes,, now I know that included the 650 but still 4% would be 4 thousand FD failures which everybody know that ain't happened........ So lets be honest in that nearly 20 thousand FD have NOT failed in the last 5 years have they???

This chicken little whining about something that just isn't true......

Lastly nobody has 5 good FD's go bad unless the person performing the work isn't skilled enough to properly measure and adjust tolerances in the FD.. A competent tech can do it, not just anybody with a tool box......

 

[flash412]

Yeah, Pete, it's all just me. If you look, you'll see that four out of five threads on BMWMOA forums and the Iron Butt Association offering bonus points for BMW drive train failures NOT my doing.

Step away from der Kool-Aide for a moment...

Last Iron Butt Rally in 2005 (or was it the one in '03?), a statistically significant sample of BMW R-bikes all suffered alternator belt failures. None failed this time. Why not? Could it be that BMW quietly updated that (easily replaceable) part?

No, surely not. You are korrekt, sir. BMW only makes PERFEKT motorbikes. It is only ze customers who are defektif. More Kool-Aide?

My 3% was b.s.?
How many final drive failures? Three.
How many BMWs entered in the IBR? But there were 99 entries, total, for all brands.
3 out of 99 = 3%
That was a charitable calculation since it included ALL brands. In fact, 59 bikes were NOT BMWs, which means 3 / (99-59) =
7.5% of all BMW's entered in the rally had a final drive failure.

Read the tech forums. LOTS of folks have had similar failures.
Oh wait... I forgot... I made this all up myself. BMW motorcycles are clearly the perfect long distance touring machine. Kill the messenger. The emporer is NOT naked.

<img src="http://r1200gsa.smugmug.com/photos/99422421-S.jpg" border="0" alt="" />
5300 miles into a 7200 mile ride

KTM anyone?
Buell?
Multistrada?

 

[Stuff2c]

where's the kool aid...

7500 miles into a 15,000 mile trouble free ride

 

[srb]

I am very glad that several people have thousands of miles on their bikes without problems. If you currently own a R/K/F/Whatever I would encourage you to continue riding, do your maintenance and have fun. But to ignore the fact that three late model motorcycles, regardless of brand, had the same component catastrophically fail is crazy. I feel sorry for any BMW dealer right about now, how in the hell can you sell something with this black cloud hanging over.

 

[The_Veg]

BMW no longer produces RELIABLE long distance motorcycles.

Go ahead and drink der Kool-Aide.

At BMW's present rate of ignoring customers' issues, URALs will soon be more reliable than BMWs.

Yep, Flash is back!

















Sorry man, no offense...couldn't resist.

 

[PGlaves]

There seems to be serious debate as to exactly how many FD failures there were. A couple threads here and also at he ADV forum indicates there were 4 FD failures. Paul says there were only 2. Some body's got to be right and 2 would indicate a less prevalent problem than 4 does. My concern isn't over the IBR but simply because I have a low mileage oilhead and I don't want to have to replace the FD on it.

The two originally disclosed are not the only ones. In fact, there were four failures of R1200GS drives: Glenn Pancoast, as I originally reported and Rob Nye's GS drive in an R1200RTP. Also, lost in the fog - finisher in 55th position Rick Neeley had his final drive replaced at the dealership in Las Vegas. And, Gerhard Mennen Krueger's R1200GS was reported "GS broke", and it was originally reported as an engine seal. It was in fact the final drive according what Gerhard told IBR staff.

So - four R1200GS new style final drives failed during the rally. Unless there is another finisher with a heretofore unreported failure that is the correct total.

Interestingly, I don't think any of the older style Oilhead final drives failed this year.

I apologize for any confusion.

 

[PGlaves]

There seems to be serious debate as to exactly how many FD failures there were. A couple threads here and also at he ADV forum indicates there were 4 FD failures. Paul says there were only 2. Some body's got to be right and 2 would indicate a less prevalent problem than 4 does. My concern isn't over the IBR but simply because I have a low mileage oilhead and I don't want to have to replace the FD on it.

The two originally disclosed are not the only ones. In fact, there were four failures of R1200GS drives: Glenn Pancoast, as I originally reported and Rob Nye's GS drive in an R1200RTP. Also, lost in the fog - finisher in 55th position Rick Neeley had his final drive replaced at the dealership in Las Vegas. And, Gerhard Mennen Krueger's R1200GS was reported "GS broke", and it was originally reported as an engine seal. It was in fact the final drive according what Gerhard told IBR staff.

So - four R1200GS new style final drives failed during the rally. Unless there is another finisher with a heretofore unreported failure that is the correct total.

Interestingly, I don't think any of the older style Oilhead final drives failed this year.

I apologize for any confusion.

 

[FredRydr]

I have not purchased a motorcycle made by BMW after about 1990 and I sincerely doubt I ever will.

Ooooooh! Now I understand. You really ought to put that quote at the bottom of all your posts so we know where you're coming from.

Fred

 

[einnar]

BMW no longer produces RELIABLE long distance motorcycles.

I disagree. My '05 F650GS did great crossing the country recently.

 

[cjack]

The two originally disclosed are not the only ones. In fact, there were four failures of R1200GS drives: Glenn Pancoast, as I originally reported and Rob Nye's GS drive in an R1200RTP. Also, lost in the fog - finisher in 55th position Rick Neeley had his final drive replaced at the dealership in Las Vegas. And, Gerhard Mennen Krueger's R1200GS was reported "GS broke", and it was originally reported as an engine seal. It was in fact the final drive according what Gerhard told IBR staff.

So - four R1200GS new style final drives failed during the rally. Unless there is another finisher with a heretofore unreported failure that is the correct total.

Interestingly, I don't think any of the older style Oilhead final drives failed this year.

I apologize for any confusion.

Interesting about the R12GSes. There was an issue about the big seal leaking on early R12GSes. I am wondering if any or all of these drives were early and/or failures started with lack of oil. Especially Rob Nye's as I understand and also it sounds like Krueger's was an oil issue given the confusion with rear engine oil seal leak.

 

[FredRydr]

...to ignore the fact that three late model motorcycles, regardless of brand, had the same component catastrophically fail is crazy. I feel sorry for any BMW dealer right about now, how in the hell can you sell something with this black cloud hanging over.

Perhaps BMW will be kind enough to deliver replacement bikes to those guys as it drags the old ones off to the lab. Good should come of this as the weaknesses are found.

Fred

 

[MOTOR31]

Paul,

Thanks very much for clearing up the confusion. Do you by any chance know how many 1200GS bikes were in the IBR. If all the FD failures were from a single model, that brings the percentage of failures up if they are restricted to one particular model. In that case it becomes ore statistically significant. Secondarily it also means that there is a specific model to avoid for future purchase.

Sheesh I was wishing I could afford a 1200 since it didn't have the whizzy brakes. I'd rather have the noisy brakes than a blown FD.

 

[REBECCAV]

Paul,

Thanks very much for clearing up the confusion. Do you by any chance know how many 1200GS bikes were in the IBR. If all the FD failures were from a single model, that brings the percentage of failures up if they are restricted to one particular model. In that case it becomes ore statistically significant. Secondarily it also means that there is a specific model to avoid for future purchase.

Sheesh I was wishing I could afford a 1200 since it didn't have the whizzy brakes. I'd rather have the noisy brakes than a blown FD.

You can find each model ridden in the IBR here:
http://www.ironbuttrally.com/ibr/2007/html/2.html

 

[MOTOR31]

Thanks for the link.

I looked it over and saw that there was a total of five 1200GS bikes entered in the IBR. Of those 5, 4 were in the DNF category. I understand that Rob Nye, although he had an RTP it was equiped with a 1200GS FD. That means of the 6 GS FD's, 4 failed. On that basis it seems like a very significant percentage of failures.

What makes the GS FD different from the other models or is it essentially the same in all of the 1200 series?

 

[RocketCowboy]

When has Honda had a problem they did not immediately address? Remember when there was a recall because some Goldwing frames broke?

I remember that recall. I remember it being issued three different times, because it took them up to three different times to correctly fix the frame problem because they tried to cheap out on it. (IMO)

Ask Honda ST1300 owners how many thermostats they've been through apparently because of an incorrectly assembled radiator. Or how many drive flange bearings the bike has eaten. There are problems in the Honda camp that don't get fixed immediately as well.

That said, I'm not doggin on either BMW or Honda here. All manufacturers have their warts, and the grass is always greener until the lot next door becomes your lot too. Still, I didn't hesitate to take the ST1300 cross country several times in the short 2 years I owned it, and I don't hesitate to take the R1200RT that replaced it out for her strolls across the country either.