Alpha V.3 Classic Digital Ignition System is 180deg out of static time - R60/5

[komalleyjr]

Hi everyone,
I am close (I think?) to completing a restore of a 1973 R60/5 that my Dad started but was not able to finish for health reasons. Dad had installed the Alpha V.3 Classic Digital Ignition System. Out of curiosity I checked the static timing by removing and grounding the plugs and turning the crank at the alternator. The plugs are firing EXACTLY 180 deg out of timing from the flywheel S mark, EXACTLY 180 deg. (The flywheel S mark is in the timing window at TDC on #1 cylinder). I talked to Vetch who said you can't really static time those units without a carefully setup testing rig but it seems really odd that its exactly 180 deg out of time.

The bike won't start but it also has rebuilt Bings (done by Bing) so it could be a fueling issue. I'm just having a hard time moving past the timing issue to pursue other causes.

Anyone ever seen this???


Thanks!
KenO

 

[20774]

Ken -

No experience with this. There are other threads on this ignition in the Similar Threads pane below...I looked through them and didn't see discussion of this issue, but might be worth a read.

Snowbum talks about this system, but don't think he has this kind of detail. Was the system purchased from Rick at Motorrad Elektrik? I would certainly try and hook up with the supplier, even if it's been some time since purchase.

Let us know what you find. I look forward to other input.

 

[stevenrankin]

Contact

If the unit was purchased at Motorrad Electrik, Rick is very good with answering questions and helping out with problems.

I find most of the suppliers of airhead gizmos and parts to be very good at customer service when it comes to something like this issue.

To be honest, if it were me, I would go over the installation steps and recheck my work. If your father did the install, I would seriously look at taking it all apart at the front of the engine and doing a reinstallation.

I will bet the problem if there is one, is to be found in something at the Hall effect area.

Mistakes happen even to experienced mechanics and sometimes instructions included with items such as this are not always clear to even experienced mechanics let alone amateurs, no insult intended.

The wiring system of this unit is bundled up, color coded and wired into a nice package meaning it is pretty unlikely a wire is out of place in the system.

One thing to remember with this system is like the factory installed electronic ignitions system this loosely copies (no bean can but the Hall effect is on a plate similar to the point system. Everything else is similar to the system BMW installed in 81) It is a very bad idea to run without grounded spark plugs. While the system may be robust, there is a chance cranking the system over without grounding the spark plugs could pop the main control module, just like what is possible with the factory BMW system.

Since this uses a magnetic Hall effect sensor to fire, I agree it may not be possible to static time things, since I have never tried to static time an electronic equipped system, I can't say for certain if this is the case. I think Vetch, who knows far more than I is right.
there is on the market a Hall effect sensor tool available for testing.

Oh, there may just be a case of the Hall effect being so far out of timing the bike won't start. I would suggest setting the sensor in the mid point of timing adjust then try starting the bike. This of course after you have assured it is properly installed.

Good luck let us know what you find. St.

 

[komalleyjr]

Clarification and correction

Hi everyone,
I am close (I think?) to completing a restore of a 1973 R60/5 that my Dad started but was not able to finish for health reasons. Dad had installed the Alpha V.3 Classic Digital Ignition System. Out of curiosity I checked the static timing by removing and grounding the plugs and turning the crank at the alternator. The plugs are firing EXACTLY 180 deg out of timing from the flywheel S mark, EXACTLY 180 deg. (The flywheel S mark is in the timing window at TDC on #1 cylinder). I talked to Vetch who said you can't really static time those units without a carefully setup testing rig but it seems really odd that its exactly 180 deg out of time.

The bike won't start but it also has rebuilt Bings (done by Bing) so it could be a fueling issue. I'm just having a hard time moving past the timing issue to pursue other causes.

Anyone ever seen this???


Thanks!
KenO

Here's a little more information and a correction. I first noticed the timing weirdness a few months ago before i was ready to try and start the bike. I called Rick at Motorrad Elektrik (not Vetch, sorry Vetch for using your name in vane!). Rick said that you can't really static test these ignition units like i was trying to do. He said there is very little that can go wrong with them - if it's firing, it's working, basically. Seemed reasonable at the time (and still does) so i carried on. Now i'm trying to start the bike and getting no joy. I think here is what i am going to do: I am going to pull the diode board, alternator, hall effect pickup and remove the cover. If the cam shaft looks like Dad timed it right (knowing Dad, he did) then I'll put it all back together and focus on the carbs.

Kurt and Steven, thank you for your responses. I will update again when i make more progress.

Thanks!

 

[20774]

Thanks for the update! I'm not totally familiar with this specific ignition, but something similar happens on an ignition conversion for the /2 bikes. The system is timed at full advance and the software in the system is what controls the timing back to idle or "static". Seems weird, but there must be a reason for it.

 

[RPGR90s]

Ignition

Hi everyone,
I am close (I think?) to completing a restore of a 1973 R60/5 that my Dad started but was not able to finish for health reasons. Dad had installed the Alpha V.3 Classic Digital Ignition System. Out of curiosity I checked the static timing by removing and grounding the plugs and turning the crank at the alternator. The plugs are firing EXACTLY 180 deg out of timing from the flywheel S mark, EXACTLY 180 deg. (The flywheel S mark is in the timing window at TDC on #1 cylinder). I talked to Vetch who said you can't really static time those units without a carefully setup testing rig but it seems really odd that its exactly 180 deg out of time.

The bike won't start but it also has rebuilt Bings (done by Bing) so it could be a fueling issue. I'm just having a hard time moving past the timing issue to pursue other causes.

Anyone ever seen this???


Thanks!
KenO

I installed this system on my R90s a few years ago. Is it possible that the timing cup was installed on the camshaft 180 degrees out of phase? The camshaft has a notch so in theory it should only go on one way, but have you checked?

 

[stevenrankin]

Diode bord

Unless the diode board is in the way, you don't have to mess with it at all. It has nothing to do with the ignition system. And really, it is not in the way of any repairs you will need to make to the ignition system. Don't add to your problems by taking something apart you don't have to. You shouldn't have to pull the alternator either.

Mind you, as I said, I have not installed one of these systems. I am going on looking at the pictures of the parts involved and the wiring involved. There is not a lot of messing around with extra wires, it looks like the installation builds on the BMW factory wiring. This is a good thing as it means less chance of getting a wire out of place on installation. Some of the after market units require adding wiring to the BMW system and that is one of the reasons I would choose this system over them.

As mentioned, there can be really only two things happening. One, and this is the most likely suspect is the Hall effect sensor is out of place or out of adjustment. On the points system this unit replaces, there is provision for the points to be gapped then, the timing adjusted by rotating the point mounting plate a limited amount advance or retard. The Hall effect sensor plate obviously replaces the points and this plate. It does not replace the need to adjust timing by moving this plate either advance or retard. The BMW bean can system (where the advance mech and Hall effect are in a can rather than out in the open like you have), takes this into consideration. At the very least, you may just be too far advanced or retarded in timing. The easy thing to do would be to move the plate to a middle posting and see if the bike fires.

If this doesn't work, then there is a good chance the Hall effect is way out of adjustment, as much as 180 degrees. It has been a very long time since I messed with the ignition on my R75 and my 78 RS, I don't remember how the cam is cut or indented or what steps BMW made to make sure the points were installed with the cam at the correct spot. in this case, you are replacing the points with a Hall effect unit, still it has to be on the cam in the right position. Having it off 180 degrees may be an easy mistake to make, I know it can be on the bean can systems. (don't ask how I know LOL0.

In the very worst case, the ignition control module, the little black box you got with the alpha system may have blown. BMW made it very clear in their system NOT to crank the bike without properly attaching and grounding spark plugs to the system. Failure to do so could end up in the failure of the spark control unit. This is VERY rare but it does happen, I very much doubt it is your problem.

To be honest, unless something is really really messed up with the carbs, you should get it to start and at least fire off. So don't mess with the carbs until all ignition questions have been answered.

I have felt with Rick and he is a great guy and will stand behind his products. Take some good pictures of what you have each step of the way sending them to him or posting them, he or we might spot something. If you are near the Rochester NY area, I might be able to swing by and give a hand. Good luck. St.

 

[komalleyjr]

I installed this system on my R90s a few years ago. Is it possible that the timing cup was installed on the camshaft 180 degrees out of phase? The camshaft has a notch so in theory it should only go on one way, but have you checked?

RPGR90s, the cup is installed correctly on the keyed camshaft. There is about ~10deg of play between the cup and the rotation of the camshaft. I set the cup at the middle of the play and tightened it so the timing should be close.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[RPGR90s]

Timing

RPGR90s, the cup is installed correctly on the keyed camshaft. There is about ~10deg of play between the cup and the rotation of the camshaft. I set the cup at the middle of the play and tightened it so the timing should be close.

Thanks for the reply.

If it were me, my next step would be to remove the left valve cover and the alternator cover.
With both plugs removed, I would rotate the engine (with a hex wrench in the alternator), clockwise until the intake valve opened and then closed.
I would then continue to rotate clockwise and verify that the OT mark shows up in the timing window at TDC, on the compression stroke.

IOW, could the flywheel have been installed at some point in the wrong position?

One other thing. Are you turning the engine clockwise at the alternator when viewed from the front? Dumb question, but I had to ask.

RPGR90s

 

[pglaves]

A flywheel with five mounting capscrews is impossible to mount 180 degrees from correct. 144 degrees or 216 degrees out, but not 180.

 

[komalleyjr]

If it were me, my next step would be to remove the left valve cover and the alternator cover.
With both plugs removed, I would rotate the engine (with a hex wrench in the alternator), clockwise until the intake valve opened and then closed.
I would then continue to rotate clockwise and verify that the OT mark shows up in the timing window at TDC, on the compression stroke.

IOW, could the flywheel have been installed at some point in the wrong position?

One other thing. Are you turning the engine clockwise at the alternator when viewed from the front? Dumb question, but I had to ask.

RPGR90s

RPGR90s, The flywheel "OT" mark is in the timing window at #1 cylinder TDC and valve lash measured at TDC on compression stroke is to spec. Unless I am not thinking about this correctly, that means that the crank and the camshaft must be timed to each other correctly. I am turning the engine at the alternator clockwise. Thanks.

 

[komalleyjr]

Unless the diode board is in the way, you don't have to mess with it at all. It has nothing to do with the ignition system. And really, it is not in the way of any repairs you will need to make to the ignition system. Don't add to your problems by taking something apart you don't have to. You shouldn't have to pull the alternator either.

Mind you, as I said, I have not installed one of these systems. I am going on looking at the pictures of the parts involved and the wiring involved. There is not a lot of messing around with extra wires, it looks like the installation builds on the BMW factory wiring. This is a good thing as it means less chance of getting a wire out of place on installation. Some of the after market units require adding wiring to the BMW system and that is one of the reasons I would choose this system over them.

As mentioned, there can be really only two things happening. One, and this is the most likely suspect is the Hall effect sensor is out of place or out of adjustment. On the points system this unit replaces, there is provision for the points to be gapped then, the timing adjusted by rotating the point mounting plate a limited amount advance or retard. The Hall effect sensor plate obviously replaces the points and this plate. It does not replace the need to adjust timing by moving this plate either advance or retard. The BMW bean can system (where the advance mech and Hall effect are in a can rather than out in the open like you have), takes this into consideration. At the very least, you may just be too far advanced or retarded in timing. The easy thing to do would be to move the plate to a middle posting and see if the bike fires.

If this doesn't work, then there is a good chance the Hall effect is way out of adjustment, as much as 180 degrees. It has been a very long time since I messed with the ignition on my R75 and my 78 RS, I don't remember how the cam is cut or indented or what steps BMW made to make sure the points were installed with the cam at the correct spot. in this case, you are replacing the points with a Hall effect unit, still it has to be on the cam in the right position. Having it off 180 degrees may be an easy mistake to make, I know it can be on the bean can systems. (don't ask how I know LOL0.

In the very worst case, the ignition control module, the little black box you got with the alpha system may have blown. BMW made it very clear in their system NOT to crank the bike without properly attaching and grounding spark plugs to the system. Failure to do so could end up in the failure of the spark control unit. This is VERY rare but it does happen, I very much doubt it is your problem.

To be honest, unless something is really really messed up with the carbs, you should get it to start and at least fire off. So don't mess with the carbs until all ignition questions have been answered.

I have felt with Rick and he is a great guy and will stand behind his products. Take some good pictures of what you have each step of the way sending them to him or posting them, he or we might spot something. If you are near the Rochester NY area, I might be able to swing by and give a hand. Good luck. St.

Hey Steven, I really appreciate the input! Let me clarify a few things in response to your questions and comments. 1) I want to remove the front engine cover to be sure that the timing mark on the cam shaft sprocket aligns with the timing mark on the crankshaft sprocket. To do so I'm pretty sure i need to remove the diode board, alternator, and hall effect sensor. 2) The hall effect sensor is set to the middle of its adjustment slot and to the middle point of the play between it and keyed end of the camshaft. So if the pickup is out of adjustment it's only by a few degrees at most. 3) The spark plugs are removed but they are zip tied to the cylinders so they are well grounded. 4) I am South Carolina so probably too far for a drop in! Thanks!

 

[stevenrankin]

Ah I see

Yes, in the case of checking to make sure the cam and the crank are lined up or the marks on the gears are lined up, You would have to do what you say.

I don't mean to drive a dying horse but are you sure You need to take it all apart? Did your dad install a new timing chain? this would be the only way the cam and crank would get out of alignment. There really is no way the cam can jump a tooth unless the gears were trashed and the chain shot. Do you know what I mean? Now if your dad installed a new chain and got the cam or crank off a tooth, there would be a timing issue which may mean the bike won't start.

I am working kind of in a bit of ignorance here because the last time I looked at the end of a point equipped bike was 30 years ago and to be honest, I am too lazy now to look up how the end of the cam and crank look LOL, sorry. I mean, I would think there would be a way to determine the alignment of the cam and crank while the crank is at TDC, A key or notch or something you can look at without tearing things apart. Now if as I said your dad installed a chain and new gears I will concede things may be off and a tear down is needed.

Are you getting any spark at all? I have been assuming you have been getting a good spark with the plugs in the leads and grounded. IF no spark, then you may have a popped control module.

I know I am probably getting obsessed with this, LOL, I am in the end of winter here, and my winter project is on a hold until the paint man gets things painted. I just got my other bike out for a ride but, now a health issue has temporary grounded me, so I am bored.

Man, I just hate to see you do a lot of work if you don't have to. Really for an airhead to jump timing there has to be major damage to the gears and chain. To be honest, I have never seen one happen either from my experience with my two high mileage bikes or at my friend's airhead shop.

Look at it this way, at least I am not leaning over your shoulder, LOL.

Lord, I would really hate for you to mess for a long time with the ignition system only to find out it is carbs. But, as a mechanic I saw some strange things in the past with cars and trucks, not so much with bikes. Cheers, St.

 

[52184]

RPGR90s, The flywheel "OT" mark is in the timing window at #1 cylinder TDC and valve lash measured at TDC on compression stroke is to spec. Unless I am not thinking about this correctly, that means that the crank and the camshaft must be timed to each other correctly. I am turning the engine at the alternator clockwise. Thanks.

Have you verified that spark is being produced when cranking the engine with the starter? Tried connecting a timing gun and cranking with the starter to see if it’s firing at or near the S mark? If valve clearances are correct and valve timing correct the failure to start could be lack of spark, mistimed spark (not as likely) or fueling. Also, is the engine cutoff switch at the handlebar correctly wired and set? Just some things to check/try.

Best,
DeVern

 

[komalleyjr]

Uploaded video with more information

I appreciate everyone's ideas so far. Today i dug into the carbs a bit more. I also tried to start the engine with starting fluid, no luck. The bike is not even trying to start. So I'm back to looking at the ignition. Here's a link to a 5 minute video I uploaded to YouTube describing what I'm seeing and what I've done so far in case you're bored.

https://youtu.be/3PhF-Y1DjAk

I'm also going to send this video link to Rick at Motorrad Elektrik.


Thanks!

 

[stevenrankin]

Spark

So, you are getting spark at the plugs, a good thing, rules out the ignition module being popped. One less thing to worry about.

BMW uses a lost spark system which means you get spark not only on the cylinder in compression but on the opposite side as well.

OT mark means both cylinders are at top dead center but only one is in compression.

Don't mind me stating the obvious, I am thinking out loud, LOL.

I like the idea of spinning the bike over with the starter and checking the firing with a timing light. I have never tried this but, hey, it may show the spark firing at the timing mark and lead to a bit more information. What the heck, it can't hurt.

You have the valves adjusted properly so, that is not an issue. it has been mentioned the flywheel can be put back on off the mark, did your dad have the flywheel off, is top dead center on the flywheel actually top dead center with the pistons? A quick look at TDC mark into the spark plug hole will confirm it. Both cylinders will be at TDC just one will be in compression.

Just for the heck of it, can you turn the Hall effect sensor 180 degrees from where it is now? You haven't said yet if your dad had changed the timing chain or not.

Good idea talking to Rick, I'm sure you are not his first customer to have a problem. Thanks for the updates on your progress. St.

 

[komalleyjr]

St, yes Dad changed the timing chain. He also had the clutch and flywheel off the bike. I checked the timing with a timing light while turning the engine with the starter but no timing marks were visible in the timing window. I can't rotate the cup on the camshaft; it's keyed and will only go on one way. Thanks!

 

[stevenrankin]

Gear marks

You may have hit the nail on the head. The last time I looked at a timing gear chain was a few years back on a R90S, mind you I understand not the same bike but, I recall each time I have done a timing chain replacement, the marks BMW sometimes makes on the gears are not the best. The R90S I worked on was nearly impossible to tell if the mark I thought was the mark was the mark I should be using.

Lining up the wrong marks on the cam and crank will throw the timing off enough to screw things up big time and cause exactly what you are having a problem with.

As for the flywheel, my friend bought a bike and the previous owner had mis installed the flywheel, after changing the oil pump gasket. (a long story he never changed the leaking main seal). Needless to say when the pistons were at TDC, the mark on the flywheel was not in the window. The bike still ran. but it was a pain to set valves. Any way, we fixed that problem when we changed the main seal. Regardless of the position of the flywheel, the bike will run.

A crankshaft gear off a tooth or two will not run.

So, you have most likely got the ignition system installed properly but the cam is not in proper alignment, apart is happening before full compression or after, doesn't matter, it is outside the limits for the bike to run.

So, now you do have to take off the alternator and stuff. Biggest pain is the bearings and such. Good luck and keep us up to date. St.

 

[guenner]

Before you get to the timing chain, do you still have the old points system? Would be an easy to mount the old system and check again. Then let's see what you find checking sparks with the points.

Btw. the cup on the system has to be 90 deg. off because it is a 2:1 ratio crankshaft/camshaft, to cause a 180 degrees off on the flywheel.

/Guenther

 

[komalleyjr]

Guenther
That is a good idea. I think I do still have the old points. Thanks!