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Why countersteer causes leaning
- Thread starter BMW Triumphant
- Start date
I read a lot of explanations, a lot of scientific arguements. But the one I like best is the one I use in an MSF course when we are talking about pressing the left handgrip forward to get the bike to go left........
"Folks, you don't have to understand exactly how an airplane flies through the air, you only have to know that it does. And like wise, you don't need to know how a bike countersteers, only that it does."
This simply explaination stops probably 98% of the puzzled looks in a class.
The other 2%, I ask them to ask me again during break.
95% of the time, they forget to ask.
max
"Folks, you don't have to understand exactly how an airplane flies through the air, you only have to know that it does. And like wise, you don't need to know how a bike countersteers, only that it does."
This simply explaination stops probably 98% of the puzzled looks in a class.
The other 2%, I ask them to ask me again during break.
95% of the time, they forget to ask.
max
My take on it as well...I don't over analyze the physics of the action...just know it works and that's all I need
But y'all continue on...
ANDYVH
New member
When it all comes down to it, there comes a time you have to make the motorcycle turn, period. That is done by countersteering of some form, period.
When the day comes that you don't use countersteering, you WILL run wide, run off the road, hit the object you don't want to hit, loose control, period.
So to riders who say they don't/never use some form of countersteering, they are either unaware they are doing it, or they simply have gotten by,.....so far. But it is very true that for 90% of riders: don't over analyze it, just do it, learn it, use it.
Years ago my orthopedic surgeon was a student in my MSF class. A very smart man, intelligent, and,...I failed him in the course because he would NOT accept the concept that the bike would go in the direction he pressed. Even after I told him, "don't think about it, just do it, get the feedback from the bike, and use it." He failed the swerve manuever everytime because his brain said "steer like a car" and by the time the bike moved, and he corrected, he would have hit the obstacle. I spent more time with him one-on-one later and he did get it and got his license. So don't over-think it, just do it and enjoy the results!
When the day comes that you don't use countersteering, you WILL run wide, run off the road, hit the object you don't want to hit, loose control, period.
So to riders who say they don't/never use some form of countersteering, they are either unaware they are doing it, or they simply have gotten by,.....so far. But it is very true that for 90% of riders: don't over analyze it, just do it, learn it, use it.
Years ago my orthopedic surgeon was a student in my MSF class. A very smart man, intelligent, and,...I failed him in the course because he would NOT accept the concept that the bike would go in the direction he pressed. Even after I told him, "don't think about it, just do it, get the feedback from the bike, and use it." He failed the swerve manuever everytime because his brain said "steer like a car" and by the time the bike moved, and he corrected, he would have hit the obstacle. I spent more time with him one-on-one later and he did get it and got his license. So don't over-think it, just do it and enjoy the results!
sedanman
neanderssance man
In my youth I had a Honda 650 NightHawk. I just rode it without thinking about how it worked I just "leaned to turn" and it turned..................until that time when it didn't. I was in a wide sweeping turn at the postted speed of 30 mph and the bike would NOT TURN ! I ran off the road and onto someones lawn. I kept the bike upright and didn't tear the guys lawn up but I was STUMPED as why to leaning didn't make the bike turn. Then I get enloghtened about countersteering.
Not overthinking it is one thing, but you MUST understand it to at least some degree to avoid disaster.
Not overthinking it is one thing, but you MUST understand it to at least some degree to avoid disaster.
BMW Triumphant
Ed Kilner #176066
Don't quite follow this part:
Removing the countersteering input in one direction would seem to imply that a countersteering input is applied in the other direction. There is no switch to turn the effect of countersteering on or off, I believe. Also, if the wheel is turned into the turn, why is this definitely not countersteering the other way, causing the bike to first straighten up before leaning the other way? Even if gyroscopic effects are zero, this question still has validity.
By the way, for those kind folks who have provided non-technical input, I do practice countersteering and have no actual operational problem in my riding, except always wanting to get more skilled, or at the beginning of a long winter, getting my skills back to where they were. I like to understand the technical reasons for what my bike does. You need not have the same interest, of course.
My original post was to provide a source for a very good diagram of a gyroscope that might help folks understand how countersteering left resulted in the wheel and bike leaning right. It was not to prompt a discussion of whether countersteering was necessary, by now most of us know it is.
New information has been suggested that gyroscopic effects are not responsible for leaning, or not the principle cause for leaning. If there is a reader who knows a web site where this topic is explained, I would be grateful for the information.
I would also be grateful to learn about the claim that countersteering is only initial, because I can't understand that.
Removing the countersteering input in one direction would seem to imply that a countersteering input is applied in the other direction. There is no switch to turn the effect of countersteering on or off, I believe. Also, if the wheel is turned into the turn, why is this definitely not countersteering the other way, causing the bike to first straighten up before leaning the other way? Even if gyroscopic effects are zero, this question still has validity.
By the way, for those kind folks who have provided non-technical input, I do practice countersteering and have no actual operational problem in my riding, except always wanting to get more skilled, or at the beginning of a long winter, getting my skills back to where they were. I like to understand the technical reasons for what my bike does. You need not have the same interest, of course.
My original post was to provide a source for a very good diagram of a gyroscope that might help folks understand how countersteering left resulted in the wheel and bike leaning right. It was not to prompt a discussion of whether countersteering was necessary, by now most of us know it is.
New information has been suggested that gyroscopic effects are not responsible for leaning, or not the principle cause for leaning. If there is a reader who knows a web site where this topic is explained, I would be grateful for the information.
I would also be grateful to learn about the claim that countersteering is only initial, because I can't understand that.
AKsuited
New member
You know, to be quite honest, I had never gave this any thought until last night. When I want to turn, I just turn. 99% of the time I don't even have an actual thought to 'push' or 'turn' anything, the bike just follows the road.
The problem with that, Mike, is what do you do when you need to swerve? That's when you need to countersteer like mad.
Harry
oldnslow
It's a way of life!
I guess my point was that I don't conciously (sp?) know what I am doing, I just do it. If I had to 'think' about swerving, it would probably be too late. This like trying to explain how goalie stops a hockey puck. Its physically impossible if he were to think about it, he just does it.
Ever notice how your bike will go the opposite direction you want it to go; just ever so slightly; when you do a quick and deliberate turn at speed? A real small zig, just before you zag? That's the countersteering working.
sedanman
neanderssance man
There are 3 basic levels to understand. Low speed, mid speed, and high speed.
At low speed there is almost no camber thrust available to push the tires back under the bike. So at low speed you countersteer to get the bike to fall into the turn then you have to steer the front wheel to drive it back under the bike to keep from falling all the way over. At low sppeds countersteering is only initial. At high speeds there is a lot of camber thrust to push the tires under the bike so it takes very little input on the bars to control the turn. At higher speeds you have to keep countersteering to offset the camber thrust. In a high speed turn you do turn the bar in the direction of the turn when you want to stand the bike back up, just not nearly as much as at slow speeds. Mid speed is the murky area where the rules change and I can't seem to find words to explain it clearly (as if I have been clear up to this point, lol )
I am also fairly certain that bike beginning to fall has less to do with the gyroscopic effects and more to do with front end geometry.
That's funny, not accepting the concept is not a grading criteria of Eval #2.
And if he maxed out eval #2, he still should have passed unless something else added up to "sorry, but......."
Also, try to remember, you didn't fail him. You only kept score. He/she rode as they rode.
max
ANDYVH
New member
Guess I should clarify that. It wasn't that he failed because he did not accept the "concept", but he failed because he could not/would not apply the concept. True that he is the one that failed. He failed the swerve on both attempts, first was too slow and he "hit" the corner of the obstacle. His second attempt speed/time was ok, but again he hit the corner of the obstacle. 10 points right there.
Then in the 135 degree turn, again because of trying to "steer" the bike through the turn he went outside the boundary and was slow. By then he amassed more than enough point to fail himself. His son and daughter in the same class both passed easily.
Then in the 135 degree turn, again because of trying to "steer" the bike through the turn he went outside the boundary and was slow. By then he amassed more than enough point to fail himself. His son and daughter in the same class both passed easily.
sedanman
neanderssance man
I vote gravity
Gravity cannot be ignored, it is a LAW after all! To be specific, I believe the DIRECTION of the fall is influenced by front end geometry and the direction in which the wheel is pointed.
BMW Triumphant
Ed Kilner #176066
insight from Wikipedia
I seem to have lost the ability to read a technical article carefully enough the first time...or maybe I only thought I once had that ability.
Went back to an article I had read previously:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
Several interesting points:
1) A steering torque is different from a steering angle.
2) A steering torque is what we apply first and the gyro forces are instantaneous to cause lean. Gyro forces are about 12% of camber thrust forces.
3) To stop the bike from falling over, the article says we adjust the steering angle to be in the direction of the turn. [This has to be a bit of reverse countersteer.]
4) Depending on speed, the steering torque may have to be maintained in the initial direction, left for a right turn, even if the steering angle through the right turn is to the right.
For the technical guys, could you have a look at the article and let me know your thoughts on it?
This is almost making sense, and most of my questions have been answered.
I seem to have lost the ability to read a technical article carefully enough the first time...or maybe I only thought I once had that ability.
Went back to an article I had read previously:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
Several interesting points:
1) A steering torque is different from a steering angle.
2) A steering torque is what we apply first and the gyro forces are instantaneous to cause lean. Gyro forces are about 12% of camber thrust forces.
3) To stop the bike from falling over, the article says we adjust the steering angle to be in the direction of the turn. [This has to be a bit of reverse countersteer.]
4) Depending on speed, the steering torque may have to be maintained in the initial direction, left for a right turn, even if the steering angle through the right turn is to the right.
For the technical guys, could you have a look at the article and let me know your thoughts on it?
This is almost making sense, and most of my questions have been answered.
F
Fourcats
Guest
I have mostly just accepted the term, believing that the forces in question do a good job of getting me around...The diagram is great, simple and confirms my beliefs. 
ANDYVH
New member
Spent yesterday afternoon out on a frozen lake doing a TT course on my ice bike (Suzuki GN400 converted to an ice-bike/flat-tracker). Interesting study in the reaction of countersteering and steering with the throttle.
Even on ice (1200 ice screw heads per tire) countersteering still applies, though the feel is of course a bit different. On some turns I experimented with purposely "steering" into the turn while leaned over, one foot out/motocross style. I could almost instantly feel the rear wheel push out and then I could countersteer into the slide.
But feet up, leaned into the turn, throttle on, and countersteering definitely still works! My ice bike has fat 18" knobby tires front and back, and each tire alone weighs over 25 pounds, so there is a lot of gyroscopic force there, which in some cases required a lot of countersteering input to get the bike to respond. One thing for sure, one thing you don't do when leaned over and with the rear end sliding is chop the throttle shut, instant traction has an amazing leverage effect. At least on the ice with some snow on top it is more forgiving.
Even on ice (1200 ice screw heads per tire) countersteering still applies, though the feel is of course a bit different. On some turns I experimented with purposely "steering" into the turn while leaned over, one foot out/motocross style. I could almost instantly feel the rear wheel push out and then I could countersteer into the slide.
But feet up, leaned into the turn, throttle on, and countersteering definitely still works! My ice bike has fat 18" knobby tires front and back, and each tire alone weighs over 25 pounds, so there is a lot of gyroscopic force there, which in some cases required a lot of countersteering input to get the bike to respond. One thing for sure, one thing you don't do when leaned over and with the rear end sliding is chop the throttle shut, instant traction has an amazing leverage effect. At least on the ice with some snow on top it is more forgiving.
