riding for records: exciting or dangerous

This is a thread I'm starting to keep debate out of the "Prudhoe to Key West" thread. It's a discussion I think has merit, though I'd like to ask now that we keep this friendly and NOT personal. I want to keep this in the campfire and not get it sent to the doghouse. I think we can debate this one in an adult non-attacking way.

I'll start out. I don't ever want to see any motorcycle rider get injured, crash, or have anything bad happen. I've met riders who have later died or been killed by other drivers, so I have no interest in hearing about that, again. I hate reading that stuff. I feel like running for distance/speed records is unsafe as many people will go without adequate sleep. Even though they may "feel fine", it's pretty hard to judge yourself in these things. I know I've ridden some time that I was getting overly fatigued, but I didn't think much about it until later. That's a tough judgement call to make on yourself in the heat of the moment. Aside from risking yourself (mostly), there is still the chance of taking out other cars/people, or at least involving them in an accident.

That being said, I'm not against events that can be completed without exceeding speed limits or running without adequate sleep.

What is your opinion? Am I wrong? Sway my opinion.

This thread will be nothing but opinion unless somebody comes up with some real stats. What is the average accident and/or fatality per million miles ridden for a motorcyclist? How does that compare to competitve LD rider's stats?

Harrington said:

This thread will be nothing but opinion unless somebody comes up with some real stats. What is the average accident and/or fatality per million miles ridden for a motorcyclist? How does that compare to competitve LD rider's stats?

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While I think that would be interesting, I haven't even gone that far. I was even thinking about the long-term viability of a "coast to coast" ride. Each time someone is going to do it faster, and eventually there is no way to "win", save higher speed or less sleep. Sleep is a concern for me over speed, as I'm not always the slowest rider. I've seen photos of multi-day riding events, and it's usually a given that riders will "collapse" at the end. I've seen many photos of riders all sleeping wherever they fall at the end of an events. That seems to reflect riders running beyond safe limits.

With the "safety" the MOA preaches and talks about in the magazine in the "Safe Rider" columns, is it time for a column on rider fatigue? Or a column on how to ride such distances in a safe manner? Is it an issue of training, or can no training really make you safe over that time and distance? I ask because I'd like to see if there is something I can do to improve myself.

exciting and dangerous

The stats may or may not be forthcoming.

I can say this from experience and known history, there are very few deaths associated with the Iron Butt Association. While there are only a very few thousand active riders performing endurance rides and rallies, there are not even a dozen who would consider a record ride.

Why would the late Doug Demokas [sp?] consider wheeling for 100's of miles non-stop; why do we have 300+mph Salt Flats records on 2-wheels; why do any of us ride where there are wild animals and even wilder cagers?

Excitment - yes; danger - well, not because of the ride, the bike or the motorcyclist, butt for sure because of the elements around the rider that cannot be controlled. Not a reason to prohibit the few who would attempt a record run IMHO.

I realize that statistics can be modified to fit the argument. These STATISTICS come from the year 2007 and that link is here: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Vehicles/VehiclesMotorcycles.aspx

The following is copied from the page for the year 2007.
Overall the number PERCENTAGE wise has decreased,, but that number is based on the population as a whole.

I, too recommend breaks, stretching and lots of caffiene !!!

As usual, it should provide for some excellent debate. The max number of miles i completed in a day (sun-up to Sun-down) was 858 miles, give or take a few. It was an exciting day as this was my initiation on my first Beemer!
Was I tired? yup. Would I have gone further to get my Iron butt? Well, now that I think about it... I coulda with only an hour or two of rest.
WOuld it have been safe? NOw there is the kicker- We are human and we all think we know our limitations. Fatigue is a funny thing.
I have worked over 36 hours straight before in my younger days.. was it safe- Absolutely not.

just food for thought. Have a great one! Love the site!









Most Harmful Event Number Percent

Collision with Motor Vehicle in Transport by Initial Point of Impact:
IMPACT - - NUMBER PERCENT
Front 2021 38.2
Left Side 205 3.9
Right Side 160 3
Rear 1 64 3.1
Other/Unknown 91 1.7
Subtotal 2641 50
- - -
Collision with Fixed Object 1333 25.2
- - -
Collision with Object Not Fixed: - -
Nonmotorist 57 1.1
Other 222 4.2
Subtotal 279 5.3
- - -
Noncollision 1027 19.4
- - -
Unknown 6 0.1
- - -
Total 5286 100

Well since riding motorcycles is in itself risky, compared to other modes of transportation, does not mean we are foolish, or should be criticized for our choice.

Not sure if my spirited pace on twisty roads, is any less dangerous.

pffog said:

Well since riding motorcycles is in itself risky, compared to other modes of transportation, does not mean we are foolish, or should be criticized for our choice.

Not sure if my spirited pace on twisty roads, is any less dangerous.

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And David Hough said on this site...

"The secret to riding quickly is don't crash, because crashing ruins your time. It doesn't matter if you want to go out for a putt-putt joy ride or go fast on the racetrack. I think it would be great if all motorcycle organizations, associations and publications would have riding skill seminars and columns on how to manage the risks of riding and how to become a more skillful rider."

It is all a risk, its how we manage it- If you can manage it and it is within your skill level, by all means persue it.. I Like it...

I might not be the fastest or the quickest - but I will be right behind ya....

Its all about the ride my friends... aint that the truth.

Personally, straight line running is the quickest way from point A to point B..
But it is no fun compared to the twisties.

haughty said:

I realize that statistics can be modified to fit the argument. These STATISTICS come from the year 2007 and that link is here: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Vehicles/VehiclesMotorcycles.aspx

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These stats are meaningless in the context of endurance riders, who are for the most part well trained riders and who did not jump into long distance riding without some serious training and building-up, if you will. Those stats include a lot of first time riders; a lot of impaired riders; a lot of fairweather, once-a-month riders. That's why the stats on endurance riding would show huge differences in total miles ridden per rider, years of experience, type of equipment et al.

I'll even allow as to how if we culled the BMW rider stats out of those noted, there would be some major differences in them in favor of the BMW riders!

Re: straight-line riding - point A to point B, a damn shame.

Every hear of the Up-Chuck 1000 put on and dreamt up by the great GZ?

I've never even heard of the "great GZ". But I'm sure they, he, she, it {?} did some great things and made terrific sacrifices for mankind in general. The Basic Law of Large numbers requires extreme aspects of any lifestyle to have a cause and effect on mortality, as well as morbidity.

My problem isn't with the racer [or long distance in a faster time] on a closed professional track or off road course, who is actually trained [by a reconized professional standard], with a minimized, calculated chance of injuring a non participant. My problem is with a novice, and we are all novice when it comes to the new [next day's traffic we'll face on the open road] attempting to seek "a record" with nothing but non participants in the same arena.

Want to do Baja, go for it and eat all the dirt, lose sleep, exceed the reasonable speed appropriate and be a winner in your own mind. But not on the city streets and highways where others are at peril for what a record seeker might be willing to risk in speed, alertness, equipment, stimulous abuse or whatever....it is not worth it...to anyone...even the SO CALLED "record holder".

I dunno, when I was a lot younger, I'd think nothing of riding all night. Can't do that no more. I start yawning around 9PM now.

Anyone who has served in the Army is familiar with the ARTEP. It is a 72 hour training/evaluation tool, widely used to train for war, and simulating war-like conditions. (No recent need for that!). Anyway, it is designed to limit or prevent your rest, and to pile on the stress, for 72 hours. It is used as training for how to continue to function under those conditions, and as evaluation to see how one reacts to those conditions. Mistakes are definitely made, as time passes. I, personally, would hate to interpolate that to motorcycling. Don't get me wrong.....I have the greatest respect for IBA. I agree with Josh, however......I don't see how one can make a legitimate safety argument, and I worry about when disaster will strike.


My butt is definitely not iron.

I find it ironic that the monotonously safety-minded BMW crowd who drone on and on about ATGATT, Hi-Vis, loud horns, modulating headlights and extra ultra bright riding lights, GPS emergency locators, rider training, risk reduction, "knowing your limits", and Sanctifying David Hough; also support setting time and distance endurance records on public roads.

If you think loud pipes create a bad impression, wait until some would-be "record setter" causes a fatal accident in the attempt, and the media finds out what he was up to at the time.

108625 said:

I find it ironic that the monotonously safety-minded BMW crowd who drone on and on about ATGATT, Hi-Vis, loud horns, modulating headlights and extra ultra bright riding lights, GPS emergency locators, rider training, risk reduction, "knowing your limits", and Sanctifying David Hough; also support setting time and distance endurance records on public roads.

If you think loud pipes create a bad impression, wait until some would-be "record setter" causes a fatal accident in the attempt, and the media finds out what he was up to at the time.

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I agree to a point.

In the case of John's UCC attempt, or Gary Egan's SF to NY run their overall rate of advance meets or exceeds the posted speed limit. For John it is in the first 24, for Gary I believe it was close to the entire ride.

This become impossible to defend to the non riding public and can easily be compared to a "Cannonball Run".

That is why at some point the IBA does not "recognize" the ride and it is not posted on the IBA website. A good example is a recent record of 7 consecutive BBG's (1500 in 24).

108625 said:

If you think loud pipes create a bad impression, wait until some would-be "record setter" causes a fatal accident in the attempt, and the media finds out what he was up to at the time.

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Luckily - "the media" has a very short attention span, and a localized viewpoint. If it didn't happen in their back yard yesterday - it will get a back page mention and they'll move on to more "important" things in a day.

Do I think endurance events are "safe" - no, I don't. But real safety is really the avoidance of ALL risk, and that means none of us should leave the womb. Once we're out in the world risk is all around us, moreso if anyone ever sits their butt on a two-wheeled-tool-of-the-devil.

It's a slippery slope when one person who has a hobby/passion accepted to be "risky" starts telling another person with a similiar (and perhaps a bit more extreme) passion that what they're doing is unsafe. Glass houses and stones 'ya know..

I ween myself off of all caffeine prior to long rides and stay off if possible. It just causes bigger issues.

108625 said:

I find it ironic that the monotonously safety-minded BMW crowd who drone on and on about ATGATT, Hi-Vis, loud horns, modulating headlights and extra ultra bright riding lights, GPS emergency locators, rider training, risk reduction, "knowing your limits", and Sanctifying David Hough; also support setting time and distance endurance records on public roads.

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I agree 100% and would suggest that there is an even bigger irony. Many of the same people who condone this "record setting ride" would be raising all kinds of stink if some "squid" on a "rice rocket" went speeding down the interstate. Because this ride is a "record run" done by an "experienced rider", otherwise law abiding people just give speed limits and sleep depravation a wink.

deilenberger said:

It's a slippery slope when one person who has a hobby/passion accepted to be "risky" starts telling another person with a similiar (and perhaps a bit more extreme) passion that what they're doing is unsafe. Glass houses and stones 'ya know..

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Exactly what I'm writing about.

There is a constant theme here of looking disdainfully on sportbike "squids", loud-pipe cruiser riders wearing chaps and doo-rags, and so-on; while at the same time, far fewer objections to, and even support for, someone trying to break a "record" on a public road like this.
If a cage driver or trucker were pushing limits like this and ran over a motorcyclist, you can bet many of these same voices would be condemning that driver's "irresponsibility".

I'm no saint either; but I won't cheer on someone racing the clock across the continent, any more than I would cheer on the loudest pipes or the longest wheelie down Main Street.

The lessons learned by high mileage riders trickle down to regular riders. The Spokane national rally a few years back took place during a scorching hot weekend. On my return trip home I left before dawn to beat the heat. After about 5 hours I recalled advice that Gary Egan had mentioned in a magazine interview about listening to your body, and if you think you are tired, you are tired and should take a cat nap.

I pulled into a rest stop near Pendleton and lay on a picnic table to just rest my eyes. When I awoke the engine was cold and I was refreshed.

It is my opinion that the endurance record runs are dangerous. No one could be at the top of their game after thousands of miles with sleep deprivation, but perhaps the endurance record runs are dangerous so that the rest of us can be safer.

Thanks to the Army I have had more than a nodding acquaintance with sleep deprivation and it's effects, which BTW are NOT that apparent to the person who is sleep deprived. The brain is the central point where everything the body does is governed and evaluated. When the processor is diminished by lack of rest it cannot really determine how far out of whack it is nor can it make reasonable and proper decisions.

I don't care a bit if someone wants to set a record in any ground vehicle as long as they use a track. They can ride / drive until they collapse or crash as far as I am concerned. Whatever record they set can then be placed on a poster, silver cup or their grave marker. At least no one else is going to be endangered by their record attempt.

A public road or highway is not a race track. It is not authorized for use for that purpose unless special permission is granted and then only on a limited area for a specific amount of time with all the related personnel and equipment needed to secure the route. The other folks on the same road with you are not aware that you are engaged in some kind of special record attempt and do not want to be an active participant in your attempt.

Just because you ride a motorcycle does not entitle you to special consideration for anything and that includes safety and traffic laws.

robnye said:

I agree to a point.

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Rob can ride for thousands of well planned miles day after day.

I can not.

If someone told me Rob was going to set a distance record, I'd say "Cool! He'll do it if his bike lets him!" (had to, sorry)

If someone tells you that Scott is going to set a distance record, buy some life insurance on him and get ready for the money to roll in. 3

We don't all have the same limits.