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Transmission chattering in first gear 1991 R100 RT

lachsmith

New member
Hey everyone, I am rebuilding a 1991 R100 RT transmission myself this winter and wanted to enlist the help of the form. With 89k miles it developed a skip in first gear. Within 200 miles from the first occurrence that skip deteriorated into the eventual loss of use of first gear entirely. When shifting into first gear the lever moved smoothly and seemed to engage but when letting out the clutch a terrible chattering sound comes from the transmission. All the other gears were working 100% with no slippage, skipping or chattering.

I have opened the gearbox and removed the innards to find no obvious damage or excessive wear. Shift forks are straight and in great condition with no wear on top or bottom surface. No broken teeth. No broken dogs, although a few of the corners of the 4th gear dogs are mildly rounded (this is the splined gear that engages with 1st gear to make the bike move in first). The only issue I have seen is that there is excessive play in 1st gear itself and there is about 0.98mm of space between 1st gear and the washers on either side of it. It seems as though the rear bearing on the output shaft crept backwards to create this gap. With that much of a gap it's possible for 1st gear to cock at a slight angle which could be preventing the 4th gear dogs from fully engaging. Thereby producing that chattering sound as the dogs skip by the windows cast in 1st gear.

These things are kind of difficult to describe in words but I'd really appreciate any feedback on this theory or anyone's similar experiences. I've done a lot of research and this does not seem to be a common problem. The only root cause I could imagine is improper shimming when the transmission was professionally rebuilt 2 years ago. The problem at that time was a failing front bearing on the output shaft.IMG_0347.jpgIMG_0348.jpgIMG_0349.jpg
 
Check the side wear on the shifter forks. The cocking or sloppy 1st gear does not sound good either. More pictures would help.
Good Luck
 
That was my thought when reading...that the box wasn't properly shimmed. I suppose you could put things back together and check where you are relative to shimming, but it's probably clear to see there's too much slack. I look forward to hear what Anton's expert eyes have to say.
 
Thanks for the input amigos. Being my first rebuild I don't really know what these parts look like new so I plan to take a trip to MAX BMW this weekend to do a little comparing. You'll also notice some galling on the output taper due to the flange nut being significantly under-torqued. It took less than 150 ft/lbs to loosen.

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This is a closeup of the leading edge of the windows in first gear. Hopefully you can make out that the edge that makes contact with the dogs has noticeable rounding (the edge in shadow).

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Dogs of 4th gear. There is a slight wearing of the top left corner but it's really not bad. You may also notice the top face of the dog is angled. I have not been able to verify if this is a design feature or a sign of wear. Any input here?

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The 1st gear shift fork is on the right. This image doesn't show it well but I have verified with a machinist square that it is not bent and the arms are perpendicular to the shaft.

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The 1st gear shift fork is closest to the camera.

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You may also notice the top face of the dog is angled. I have not been able to verify if this is a design feature or a sign of wear. Any input here?

I could see where having the angle would help with making a positive engagement and holding it engaged. That would be my guess.
 
That was my thought when reading...that the box wasn't properly shimmed. I suppose you could put things back together and check where you are relative to shimming, but it's probably clear to see there's too much slack. I look forward to hear what Anton's expert eyes have to say.

Kurt I agree that the angled top face of the dogs makes sense as a design feature. That's just the issue I'm having here though. Nothing looks excessively worn or broken so I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the root cause for the chattering and disengaging in 1st gear. If we like the improper shimming as the root cause consider that the gap that opened is nearly 1mm and that I rode this bike for 15k miles (including a 10k mile cross country circuit) after the last transmission servicing. If it were that badly under-shimmed I would have expected an issue a little sooner. I'll make the trip to MAX tomorrow and post what I learn.
 
advice from MAX BMW

Diagnosis: I made the trip to New Hampshire and talked with their airhead tech and parts experts over a box of transmission parts. The essential conclusion was improper shimming in the last rebuild of the transmission and/or a circlip issue. The gears and dogs are all in pretty great shape considering the mileage and replacing them was not recommended.

Recommendation New output shaft with circlip and new first gear bushing. I left MAX with a box full of new parts with the ability to return them should I find the old parts in good condition. As I inspected and measured the components of the output shaft I found all the washers and clips to be identical to the new parts. The only exception was the bronze busing that first gear rides on which was 0.03mm thinner than the new bushing which created 0.07mm of extra play. Who knows if this is enough to cause the issue but I replaced the bushing.

Let the assembly commence.

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Pretty cool you are diving right into this bad boy :thumb
The pictures are a great help. The only time I got into a gearbox is when I hit a stump with the Honda 100 and bent the shifter fork shaft. Kinda scary but I got through it.
Look forward to seeing the rest of your rebuild.
Gary
 
the rest of it

After a lot of pondering and a few pots of coffee I broke out the micrometer, measuring plate and shims from Cycleworks to complete the reassembly. All in all it took an afternoon to get everything back together while doing the end float calculations 9 times. You may know this trick already but it's incredible how well it works - put the transmission housing and cover in the oven at ~200º while simultaneously chilling the fully assembled transmission shafts in the freezer for 30 minutes. This expands and shrinks the parts respectively so that they slip together without a fight.

The measuring plate and shims are available here.

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Very interesting. Glad to see someone jump in with both feet. I see Max BMW gives you M&Ms when you visit in person also, eh?

Ya they are pretty much everything you could want from a dealer. I am about a 60 minute drive away and I never dread going there. Looking through the shop always inspires.
 
Well, I wonder how this turned out in the end???

I know someone who has a similar issue. Did you get it fixed O.K.?
 
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