[RESOLVED - bad HES] '02 R1150R can't hold idle

[pauls1150]

I've never seen a "bad" TPS on oilheads, but one guy on this forum posted a picture of his a few years ago - it had a crack along a film-resistor strip. Older TPSs had a wirewound resistance wire in each circuit, while newer ones use the film resistors (carbon embedded into the porcelain). Another guy found that the connector/clip that attaches to the bottom of his TPS was not fully seated, so try removing it (squeeze the clip and gently pull down), verifying the contacts - in both the plug and the socket - are clean and straight, and re-seat it. Just fer jollies, here's what it looks like inside:
IFF all the cables are properly adjusted, opening the throttle (or the fast idle lever) adds air, so that may be a clue...
On the other hand, what you say in the first four bullet points of post 20 sure "sounds" electrical - like an almost dead battery, or a bad starter relay (in the plastic box under the seat, front row and most left) or solenoid on the starter.
Question for Everybody: Did the '02s have the bad HES wires?

 

[m_stock10506]

Question for Everybody: Did the '02s have the bad HES wires?

"early 1150" bikes still had the bad HES wiring. A 2002 probably does have the bad wiring.

 

[wobbleduck1150]

Thanks Paul and Michael. I did inspect the TPS connector contacts and found they were nice and shiny. I sprayed them with electronic cleaner anyway just to be safe. How can I check that the TPS is good? And the HES?

I checked throttle cable free play today and all was satisfactory there.

I've had the battery hooked up to a tender since I had to park the bike. I will examine the starter/relay tomorrow.

 

[pauls1150]

Here's a schematic of the TPS -

Using an ANALOG ohmmeter - a digital meter can easily miss "sweeping" measurements - as you slowly rotate the throttle, you should see a smooth change of resistance between pins 1 and 2, and between pins 3 and 2. (Pin 1 is the red and white wire at the "right/rear" of the unit; see the bottom of the pic in post 21). The total resistance between pins 1 & 2 should be about 2KΩ (two thousand ohms) +/- 20%; between pins 2 & 3 you should see about 700 to 1400 ohms; these numbers are from the Bosch data sheet for their (not BMW's) p/n 0280122001.
You should see something (I haven't calculated "what") from pin 4 to each of the other pins, but the value will vary depending on the position of the throttle body's central shaft.
An HES wiring problem can be frustrating to track down, since it's "symptom" is random poor running, especially when wet (or if it ever got wet). The earlier bikes had insulation that broke down under the heat of the local area; best bet is to take a very close look at its wiring underneath harness, very close to the HES itself.

 

[omega man]

People forget about the value of an analog meter for detecting small voltage variations.
Having a “sweep” hand lets you do or see minor voltage variations.
OM

 

[pauls1150]

Gotta have both! And a few spare fuses for when we exceed the meter's limits...

 

[rogerc60]

Many newer DMMs have an "analog" bar graph below the digital display. Mine does, and it serves well for this kind of use.

 

[m_stock10506]

I added oil almost to the top mark and cranked it once or twice; the oil dropped below halfway. As I added more oil and tried again, the engine was able to turn over and seemed to catch for about 2 seconds before the screeching began. I ended up adding close to 700 mL of oil, and each time I tried to start, the level would drop. There were no leaks, as I was parked in the garage and the ground was clear. There also was no smoke or funny smell.

I just read through the whole post. As you have been told, the oil sight window is for checking level ONLY with the engine OFF. The oil will disappear from the window when the engine is running. Your original symptoms sound like you're not getting enough fuel. I think you said you pulled the fuel pump plate and everything looked okay. BUT - did you remove the "U" hose and check it for cracks? The U hose will age, and then crack on the inner side of the U. The gas will flow under pressure out of the cracks back into the gas tank. The typical symptom is the bike will start because it gets enough gas to start up, but as soon as you try to increase RPM it dies because it can't deliver more fuel so it only gets more air.

Your OBD error,might be misleading. The Oilheads almost always send two Hall Effect error codes when queried. They only don't get this error if they are running or just cranked over before getting the codes. That "throttle valve sensor" error could be the HES.

The screech could be the starter or the alternator belt. Other than overfilling the oil, it doesn't sound like an engine blowing up.

 

[wobbleduck1150]

Here's a schematic of the TPS -
snip
Using an ANALOG ohmmeter - a digital meter can easily miss "sweeping" measurements - as you slowly rotate the throttle, you should see a smooth change of resistance between pins 1 and 2, and between pins 3 and 2. (Pin 1 is the red and white wire at the "right/rear" of the unit; see the bottom of the pic in post 21). The total resistance between pins 1 & 2 should be about 2KΩ (two thousand ohms) +/- 20%; between pins 2 & 3 you should see about 700 to 1400 ohms; these numbers are from the Bosch data sheet for their (not BMW's) p/n 0280122001.
You should see something (I haven't calculated "what") from pin 4 to each of the other pins, but the value will vary depending on the position of the throttle body's central shaft.
An HES wiring problem can be frustrating to track down, since it's "symptom" is random poor running, especially when wet (or if it ever got wet). The earlier bikes had insulation that broke down under the heat of the local area; best bet is to take a very close look at its wiring underneath harness, very close to the HES itself.

Resistance between pins #1 and #2 was 2.2 kΩ throttle closed and 0.88 WOT. Change was smooth but it hit 0.88 at around 60% open and stayed there the rest of the way to WOT.

Resistance between pins #2 and #3 started at 1.68 kΩ. As I opened the throttle it rose to 1.87 then dipped down to 1.27 at WOT. Letting the throttle snap closed would cause resistance to skyrocket, reaching 200-300 kΩ on multiple occasions, and remain there until I touched the throttle again. I found that this would happen every time unless I closed the throttle very gently.

I just read through the whole post. As you have been told, the oil sight window is for checking level ONLY with the engine OFF. The oil will disappear from the window when the engine is running. Your original symptoms sound like you're not getting enough fuel. I think you said you pulled the fuel pump plate and everything looked okay. BUT - did you remove the "U" hose and check it for cracks? The U hose will age, and then crack on the inner side of the U. The gas will flow under pressure out of the cracks back into the gas tank. The typical symptom is the bike will start because it gets enough gas to start up, but as soon as you try to increase RPM it dies because it can't deliver more fuel so it only gets more air.

Your OBD error,might be misleading. The Oilheads almost always send two Hall Effect error codes when queried. They only don't get this error if they are running or just cranked over before getting the codes. That "throttle valve sensor" error could be the HES.

The screech could be the starter or the alternator belt. Other than overfilling the oil, it doesn't sound like an engine blowing up.

I did inspect the hoses when I changed the fuel filters, and afterwards tested fuel pressure and found it would hold 41 psi. I will test again once my quick release fittings arrive. Regarding the fault codes, I did get 0335 and 0385 (HES signals 1 and 2) prior to starting, but these went away after starting. I believe this is normal but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[pauls1150]

Two possibilities regarding the measurements:

1) The potentiometer wipers or the resistor tracks are dirty or worn; unfortunately, you can't directly explore this without de-lidding the TPS, which usually destroys it; and if it lives thru this, you still have to re-seal it to use it.

2) More Likely - The extremely high readings may be an indication that the wiper has over-shot the ends of the resistors; this could easily be due to somebody attempting a "Zero = Zero" alignment of the TPS and not realizing that an actual "zero" millivolt reading is Not Valid: one must "settle for" about 3 to 9 millivolts at closed throttle (before opening slightly via the stop screw).
Since the two pots are wired together, and are not the same, they do interact as to what voltage they send to the "fuel" side of the computer; this makes it difficult to predict what the resistance should be at any particular setting without knowing what their separate resistances are.

The 0=0 method is found at https://ibmwr.org/index.php/2001/05/28/zerozero-tps-adjustment/ followed by https://ibmwr.org/index.php/2018/07/03/connecting-your-vom-to-the-tps/; also, articles https://ibmwr.org/index.php/2004/11/23/throttle-body-synchronization/ and https://ibmwr.org/index.php/2004/11/23/tps-and-throttle-screw-adjustment/ are relevant; read thru and understand all before trying it yourself.

A while back, I thing it was Roger04RT who promoted setting the TPS zero point to 250 millivolts (?anybody?) based on another Bosch spec; that seems to work too.

 

[bc1100s]

As an unqualified backyard hacker and author of many self-caused issues, I'll guess that the potentiometer has never been messed with. Why? The bike was running well for awhile. What the actual problem is, I haven't the foggiest but the starter should certainly be cleaned - the screeching of an alternator belt is usually heard after the bike starts.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, its happened before.

 

[pauls1150]

Maybe the two mounting screws loosened up...? If so, or the unit got kicked, the setting has changed.

Just adding to my post 30 - The "idle" position is with the wipers (actuated by the throttle body shaft) fully to the "right" of the picture. We can see that not only are the pots Not the same, but they also start and finish at different points along their respective tracks.
Here are two more pictures to illustrate this -

Note that not only does the width of track 2 change (I'd make an edumacated guess that a wider track has a lower resistance), but they also start at different points along the arc of rotation [taking into account the front-to-back feed-thru vias], indicating that the factory is assigning different voltages for different conditions (idle, partial throttle, full throttle).
This may be moot to 'Duck's "root cause" of the problem, but it does explain why the measured resistance (and therefor the voltage sent to the computer) will look like it suddenly jumps.

 

[wobbleduck1150]

I ordered an orphaned TPS from ebay and figured I would try loosening the mounting screws and adjusting my existing TPS since I'm gonna be removing it later anyway. Does anyone have experience doing 0=0 or 0=250 using MotoScan? The app only gives angle and no voltage. Do I just slacken both cables and turn the TPS until it reads 0.00 degrees?

I should mention that my mounting screws have some blue paint left on them, while the TPS itself has none. The unit was mounted firmly, but without the paint I can't tell if it's been moved from its original position.

As an unqualified backyard hacker and author of many self-caused issues, I'll guess that the potentiometer has never been messed with. Why? The bike was running well for awhile. What the actual problem is, I haven't the foggiest but the starter should certainly be cleaned - the screeching of an alternator belt is usually heard after the bike starts.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, its happened before.

My bike was running fine, for the most part. A while back while riding around, it suddenly died as if the killswitch had been flipped. For about ten minutes it refused to start; I can't remember if it was able to turn over. It fired up eventually and I rode home cautiously. From then on it was fine until one morning it just wouldn't start, leading to my present situation. Not sure if this is relevant, but figured I should share as much info as I can.

Also, the screeching stopped a while ago, thankfully.

 

[pauls1150]

re Turning the TPS - Normally, one doesn't do it without a GOOD DVM connected with its positive on wire #1 (with the TPS connected, so you have to use a skinny pin to get up in there) and its negative on the brown (ground) wire at the throttle body; and by "Good" I mean with 3 decimal places of readout on its lowest voltage scale. You do NOT want "Zero" volts - that means the wiper has gone beyond the resistor's end; you want anything repeatable within a 2 to 10 millivolt range (for 0 throttle plate opening = 0 volts to computer, because the process also has the operator backing off the throttle stop screw). Also, your connections here Must be firm and stable, or the measurement will not repeat as you Normally and Gently open and close the throttle.

The starter may still be dirty, or dragging the voltage down (and pulling more current) due to internal crud or even a magnet that has broken free from its glue (yes this has happened).
Or if that screech came from the alternator belt, maybe it's finally broken; maybe the alternator was previously not keeping the battery charged, per your symptoms of needing to keep the Start button pressed and the subsequent slow turnover.

 

[m_stock10506]

Does anyone have experience doing 0=0 or 0=250 using MotoScan?

The 0=0 has been discouraged, replaced by the 0=250. That's millivolts, as in .250 volts. So you need to be reading the smallest dc volts setting.

bike warmed up, air bypass ports and big brass screws scleaned
move both big brass screws out equally to 2 1/2 turns
both throttles on the stops. stops screws not contacting, cables with free play.
set the TPS to 250 mv and screw it down.
left stop screw applied, until the tps reading is 340
lock the left stop screw in place
set the right throttle stop screw approximately equal to the left
start bike and balance the throttle bodies at IDLE by moving the right throttle stop screw. Doesn't matter how high the idle is, just equal both sides.
lock the right throttle stop screw in place
balance at IDLE using the big brass screws to set idle rpm at 1050-1100 rpm.
balance at off-idle using the throttle cables to set off-idle balance equal.

 

[pauls1150]

Discouraged, yes, but I've never done it.
Roger04RT published that (I believe) several years ago, based on a spec sheet he had from Bosch; if one is willing to dig thru all his posts, maybe it can still be found... I'd like to see it, for some kind of justification.
I have used zero millivolts on all 3 of my oilheads ('97 R1100RT, '04 1150RS, and my present '04 1150RT) and a friend's early R11S (his dealer absolutely refused to break the holy paint), and they all start(ed) easily, ran well, got good gas mileage, and the plugs looked fine.
I believe (but cannot confirm) that all the difference does is to offset the addresses of the fuel mapping inside the computer; some have postulated that "there's not enough memory space" or "it will run too rich/too lean" under certain conditions. I have not encountered any problem with zero (or actually, anything < 10 mV).
But everybody does what they want and what they believe, so take yer pick...

 

[omega man]

Discouraged, yes, but I've never done it.
Roger04RT published that (I believe) several years ago, based on a spec sheet he had from Bosch; if one is willing to dig thru all his posts, maybe it can still be found... I'd like to see it, for some kind of justification.
I have used zero millivolts on all 3 of my oilheads ('97 R1100RT, '04 1150RS, and my present '04 1150RT) and a friend's early R11S (his dealer absolutely refused to break the holy paint), and they all start(ed) easily, ran well, got good gas mileage, and the plugs looked fine.
I believe (but cannot confirm) that all the difference does is to offset the addresses of the fuel mapping inside the computer; some have postulated that "there's not enough memory space" or "it will run too rich/too lean" under certain conditions. I have not encountered any problem with zero (or actually, anything < 10 mV).
But everybody does what they want and what they believe, so take yer pick...

This thread?

2001 R1100R Super Tuning (Setting TPS and Stops screws)

I am attempting to Adjust my Throttle Screw and TPS by completing the Super Tuning procedure authored by Rob Lentini which can be found in the R1100 Maintenance Guide/Internet BMW Riders. I successfully loosened the throttle cables and stop screw. I am stuck on the “probing with a paper clip in...

forums.bmwmoa.org

OM

 

[pauls1150]

That has "a procedure", but no reason for using 250 mV as the starting point. I do recall him saying something in our forum that he saw the 250 in a Bosch spec.
On the other hand, above that, Spartanman says it starts and runs better; the different setting results in a different setting for the air screw(s).
And below that (far below), Roger says "I wouldn't perform z=250 on any bike unless I was sure it needed it." (bold and red is mine, not his)
I "think" that 0=0 is basically correct, unless it doesn't seem to play well; then try the 250 mV...
Never having done that, I just don't know....

 

[pauls1150]

Speaking of throttles and such -
Have you ever tried re-setting the "initial basic fuel map reset" procedure? If the computer lost part of its memory, such as when the battery is disconnected for more than a couple of minutes, then it might be struggling to figure out the proper fuel requirements.
How: Key on, but engine off. SLOWLY twist the throttle 3 times to full open, and gently roll it back to closed. Key off.
This re-assigns the basic "starting point" for the computer's "fuel" side, which will then fine-tune itself over several miles of riding at various throttle, speed, and gear combinations.

And... as I hinted earlier... Are you sure the battery is Really Good? Ever have it load-tested? Note - do NOT let the person at your local auto parts store do a quickie boost before the test: you want the condition of the battery as it is "Now".
A weak battery is hell on the starter and starter relay, and even if the bike starts, the lights, computer, and ignition all need to have a solid power supply.

 

[wobbleduck1150]

Thanks all for the responses. Since I've already loosened the TPS, I'll play around with 0=0 and 0=250. If the absurdly high resistance I measured in post #29 is a result of the wiper leaving the tracks, would either calibration procedure restore the TPS? or has it been permanently damaged?

snip
The starter may still be dirty, or dragging the voltage down (and pulling more current) due to internal crud or even a magnet that has broken free from its glue (yes this has happened).
Or if that screech came from the alternator belt, maybe it's finally broken; maybe the alternator was previously not keeping the battery charged, per your symptoms of needing to keep the Start button pressed and the subsequent slow turnover.

I've verified that the alternator belt has not snapped; I'll try to check the starter internals tomorrow.

Speaking of throttles and such -
Have you ever tried re-setting the "initial basic fuel map reset" procedure? If the computer lost part of its memory, such as when the battery is disconnected for more than a couple of minutes, then it might be struggling to figure out the proper fuel requirements.
How: Key on, but engine off. SLOWLY twist the throttle 3 times to full open, and gently roll it back to closed. Key off.
This re-assigns the basic "starting point" for the computer's "fuel" side, which will then fine-tune itself over several miles of riding at various throttle, speed, and gear combinations.

I tried this today to no effect, sadly. Anything else I can do with regard to resetting the Motronic?

And... as I hinted earlier... Are you sure the battery is Really Good? Ever have it load-tested? Note - do NOT let the person at your local auto parts store do a quickie boost before the test: you want the condition of the battery as it is "Now".
A weak battery is hell on the starter and starter relay, and even if the bike starts, the lights, computer, and ignition all need to have a solid power supply.

I took the battery to a store today and asked them to test it without any boosts. The guy warned me that his testing gadget was specifically for automotive batteries and might not work on mine. Tested anyway and got a "bad battery" readout with no elaboration. IIRC my battery usually holds 12.8 V and dips to around 10.5 while starting. During idle it sits around 12.3 V which I think is much too low. However since my idle RPM is also very low, I wonder if the alternator is able to do its job. Once the engine cuts out, the battery climbs back to 12.8 after a minute or two (not connected to tender). Is my battery toast?

I also wanted to test the alternator today, but seeing as my Clymer instructs me to first get the bike to idle at 1400, I can't really do so. Any ideas?