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[RESOLVED - bad HES] '02 R1150R can't hold idle

W

wobbleduck1150

New member
[Edit for posterity]
I was getting very rough and low idle (300-400 RPM, irratic) that got progressively rougher til it stalled out. I also had to run the starter for many seconds before the engine would catch. Before symptoms came about I had a surprise on the road where the bike suddenly died as if the killswitch had been hit. Took several minutes of mashing the starter to get running again. If your bike cuts out randomly or has a no-idle problem like mine did, take a look at your Hall effect sensor (HES). Earlier year 1150s had wiring that couldn't withstand the heat from the engine. When I took mine out the wiring sheath crumbled to dust. Replaced the HES with a properly heat-resistant one from EME and have had no issues since. Huge thanks to all the forum folks for their help. Hopefully this can help someone in the future with the same problem.

[Original post follows]
Hi all, I recently got an '02 R1150R with about 50k miles on it. Was running well for the first few weeks but now when I crank it, 80% of the time it fails to start and the remaining 20% of the time it starts, idles weakly for a few seconds, then dies. While it's idling, if I use the tiniest bit of throttle it'll rev up, but will still eventually sputter out. Giving any more than a smidge of throttle kills the engine immediately. Using choke doesn't seem to make a difference. Would anyone happen to have any ideas to help me get started with fixing the issue?
 
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I think there is a problem with fuel delivery. Possibly partially clogged injectors but it is as likely water or some other contaminant in the fuel.
 
Hi Alex. Sorry to hear about your issue. As Paul mentioned it sounds like a fueling issue. Because you mentioned using the choke and how it’s not making any difference, something you should know is that these bikes are fuel injected, so there is no choke. The black lever on the handlebar, next to the handgrip that you’re referring to is used to increase idle speed. When the engine is cold, you can use it for increasing engine revs to help bring the bike up to operating temperature.

As for your fueling issue, you might consider using a quality fuel injector cleaner and a fresh tank of gas to see if that improves the situation. Lucky for you, the fuel injectors on your bike are accessible with little effort if you needed to remove them for a more thorough cleaning. In keeping with the fueling issue theory, when a bike bogs down as you’ve described, I also tend to think about the fuel filter which could also be your culprit.

I’m by no means an expert and most everything I know about these Oilhead bikes comes from guys like Paul and others who will likely chime in with their thoughts as well. You’ve come to the right place.
 
Is the throttle cable unseated at the throttle body? Make sure it if fully down in the collar.

If it is, there is also a high likelyhood that the tank liner is separating and a big piece of it is clogging the fuel pickup. Pull the tank and get the old liner out. You do not need to reseal it. Just get as much of liner stripped out and reassemble.

Good luck.
 
I have had to remove the fuel tank on my '03 R1100S several times lately for unrelated reasons. In at least two of those instances the right throttle cable pulled out of it's seat. Starting the engine after that revealed atrocious running. After the first go-round I was quick to correct the mistake. It's worth a look.

Frank
 
Thanks all for the replies. The gas in the tank was fresh so I added seafoam and cranked it. It now seems to start more consistently, although I need to hold the button for longer than usual or else it won't turn over. Idle seems a bit stronger than before but still dies out after a few seconds. It doesn't cut out suddenly. The revs decrease to the point where it sounds like a suitcase falling down stairs, then it gives a final thump...thump......thump and dies. As before, touching the throttle kills it instantly unless I twist it by a micrometer, and even then it barely helps and dies anyway. Using the "choke" (thanks tango for clarifying) seemed to make it die faster or not start at all.

Tomorrow I'll go get a fresh(er) can of gas and try again with seafoam just to be sure. I'll also be sure to inspect the throttle cable.

Is there a way to inspect the condition of the tank liner before I strip it, without having to steal one of those butt cameras they use for colonoscopies? I can't see very much from the top cap. And if I do strip the liner, is it imperative to re-line it? Just want to confirm before I drop $70 on red kote.
 
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wobbleduck1150 said:
Thanks all for the replies. The gas in the tank was fresh so I added seafoam and cranked it. It now seems to start more consistently, although I need to hold the button for longer than usual or else it won't turn over. Idle seems a bit stronger than before but still dies out after a few seconds. It doesn't cut out suddenly. The revs decrease to the point where it sounds like a suitcase falling down stairs, then it gives a final thump...thump......thump and dies. As before, touching the throttle kills it instantly unless I twist it by a micrometer, and even then it barely helps and dies anyway. Using the "choke" (thanks tango, my brain is smooth so I didn't know chokes are for carbs) seemed to make it die faster or not start at all.

Tomorrow I'll go get a fresh(er) can of gas and try again with seafoam just to be sure. I'll also be sure to inspect the throttle cable.

Is there a way to inspect the condition of the tank liner before I strip it, without having to steal one of those butt cameras they use for colonoscopies? And if I do strip the liner, is it imperative to re-line it? Just want to confirm before I drop $70 on red kote.
Click to expand...
I did not recoat mine. There really is no reason to do it. There is a filter and the seams on the BMW don't need it either. That was the advise I got from every shop I asked.

Shine a light down in it and you will likely see big sheets of the liner hanging off. The liner actually only has about a 10 year service life so yours is way overdue.

I used Seafoam on mine when things first started happening. I think it might have promoted more release.
 
Hello all, this morning when I tried to start my bike again I was greeted with a horrid screeching sound. Being a nincompoop I tried a few more times before checking the oil level and finding out that it had dropped below the minimum mark. The last time I checked the oil was shortly after my bike became nonoperational, and IIRC it was around the halfway mark.

I added oil almost to the top mark and cranked it once or twice; the oil dropped below halfway. As I added more oil and tried again, the engine was able to turn over and seemed to catch for about 2 seconds before the screeching began. I ended up adding close to 700 mL of oil, and each time I tried to start, the level would drop. There were no leaks, as I was parked in the garage and the ground was clear. There also was no smoke or funny smell.

I'm pretty sure the sound is coming from the left side of the bike. It sounds like it's coming from the starter, but I have no idea if that makes any sense. A cursory examination of the starter's externals revealed nothing abnormal, but I probably don't know what to look for anyway.

Have I cast catastrophic engine failure upon my bike? please help.
 
Screeching is fairly common when the innards of the starter are dirty; there are several threads here about how to take it apart and clean & relube it. A bit tedious but not difficult if you are handy and have the tools.

NOTE that even when the oil level is absolutely correct, it WILL drop as the engine starts - this is the oil "pickup" prior to actual circulation.
Do NOT just keep on adding oil! There are also several threads here about how to PROPERLY check the level; some are ok, some are good, and some are actually correct. (I prefer the "get it up to temp, then sidestand for 5 to 10 minutes, then centerstand for a few minutes" method. Personally, I consider anything from the center of the window to the inner edge of the top of the red circle to be "Fine".)

There are just SO many different things that could impede decent starting & running, and troubleshooting from afar can be tedious.... keep us posted as you progress... but anyway, here's a "short" list -
1)
a) Water in the gas - skip the SeaFoam and just either drain the tank (a great time to verify that it's been updated with all metal disconnects instead of the factory plastic crap), or add a half bottle of Techron, or even HEET in the RED bottle (not yellow) - it's alcohol (which is not great for the engine), but alcohol can break down water. If you are CERTAIN that there is no water in the gas, you could also add a few cups of TrueFuel in the gray can.
b) A clogged fuel filter will certainly cause hard starting and/or poor running. There are two of them, one before and one after the fuel pump, and on a stock bike, they can be tedious to R&R.
2) Tuneup -
a) Many of us sure like NGK or AutoLite plugs a bunch more than Bosch.
b) Valve clearance - Too tight or too loose does not work well; I set mine to the sloppy side of the spec's max. Make sure the tiny etch mark on the cam sprocket is pointed straight outward on the side that you are adjusting, AND that the valves on that side are both closed: it is possible to adjust them when the engine is 360 degrees away from where it's supposed to be, and that place is NOT common to both sides. Check twice.
c) Throttle bodies' cleanout and sync: Each one has a Big Brass Screw on the side; this is an airflow adjustment. Make a pencil mark on the throttle body immediately adjacent to one side of the screw slot, and count the number of turns (clockwise, full turns + fractions thereof) it takes to lightly seat the shaft; remember or write down this number. This is to help you return them to the original settings later. "Typical" is about 1.5 to 2.5. Pull the screw(s) up and out, and see if the tips are clean brass - clean off any junk accumulation. You can also use a Q-Tip with either alcohol or gas to Gently go down the bore and wipe additional junk out. If you want to use a spray carb cleaner down there, use eye protection! As this is the "Idle Air" passage, dirt will be a definite detriment. Make sure the O-rings on the BBSs (big brass screws) are in good condition; cracked or broken ones will also directly affect the idle.
d) Cable adjustment - which should probably be done before trying to sync the injectors - can be a minor PITA, but again, there are threads here on how to do that. Method depends on the year, as the cables (one from the twistgrip, one from the "Fast Idle" lever, a junction box (which has its own issues; again, see other threads), and two down to the throttle bodies. The paint marks on the throttle body screws are NOT holy and MAY be broken for re-adjustment. Also note that the throttle stop screw at the bottom end of the cables will interact with the idle air adjustment; some readjustment could be necessary later.
e) Air filter - If it's dirty, just R&R it with another BMW filter, not an after-market item, please. If there's some oil in the bottom of the airbox, then at some point, somebody probably over-filled the crankcase oil. You can drain this out via a black plastic plug - exactly the same as the main filler plug - at the bottom left rear of the airbox; use a small paper cup or a sacrificial rag to catch the spill.
f) Exhaust - shine a flashlight up the back end and make sure a rodent hasn't made a home or stash in there. It happens...

There's more (I've purposely skipped the Throttle Position Sensor here), but this ought to get you on the right path.
 
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Hi all, sorry for being quiet this past week. I removed the tank and pump assembly but didn't find anything immediately alarming. I'm planning to replace the fuel filter/strainer and air filter. Currently waiting on parts and a spark plug cap puller to arrive.

Is there a way to check fuel pressure without needing to get the engine to idle?
 
Reminder... there are TWO filters.
Which in turn reminds me... do you still have the charcoal canister hooked up? These have been known to lose some charcoal particles down the vacuum lines and into the throttle bodies.
 
The fuel pressure comes up when you turn the key and you hear the pump run for a second or so. Put a pressure gauge in the lower fuel line to measure that. If the pump is running, it's unlikely that the regulator is bad, but if you have an internal leak (like a bad U-shaped hose) the presure will drop quickly when the pump stops. In a good system, the pressure will rise to about 3.5 bar after a few key cycles and stay there.
 
pauls1150 said:
Reminder... there are TWO filters.
Which in turn reminds me... do you still have the charcoal canister hooked up? These have been known to lose some charcoal particles down the vacuum lines and into the throttle bodies.
Click to expand...
Yes, the can is still there. When you say two filters, are you referring to #3 and #4 shown here?
AntonLargiader said:
The fuel pressure comes up when you turn the key and you hear the pump run for a second or so. Put a pressure gauge in the lower fuel line to measure that. If the pump is running, it's unlikely that the regulator is bad, but if you have an internal leak (like a bad U-shaped hose) the presure will drop quickly when the pump stops. In a good system, the pressure will rise to about 3.5 bar after a few key cycles and stay there.
Click to expand...
The pressure rises to ~49 psi upon turning the key, then immediately drops to ~41 psi once the pump stops. I'm leaving the gauge on overnight to see if it drops further. Should I assume an internal leak? Repair manual says pressure at idle should be 42.69±2.85 psi.
 
Hi again all, sorry for the long silence. I sent my injectors to Marren FI and got them back a few days ago. Sadly after reinstalling them today with a fresh tank of gas the problem persists. I also checked the spark plugs using my new puller tool; both have good spark. I'm gonna buy an OBD-2 reader next and see what I get.

pauls1150 said:
When you say two filters, are you referring to #3 and #4 shown here?

Yes.
Click to expand...
Thanks for checking for me. I changed both filters last time I took the tank off.
 
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Hi all, my OBD thingy (UniCarScan with the MotoScan app) came in a few days ago and spat out fault code 0120 "Electromotive throttle valve sensor". Is this referring to the Bosch throttle position sensor?

Since it's been a while, a synopsis of my bike's condition is as follows:
  • starter must be held for several seconds before engine begins to turn over
  • starter must be held for a few more seconds before it catches and starts idling
  • idle speed is low (<1000 RPM) and irregular
  • idle becomes rougher and rougher until it dies. Longest idle I've gotten is about 20 seconds.
I've noticed that the engine seems unwilling to go above ~1000 RPM. Twisting the throttle or using the cold start lever causes it to die instantly.

A summary of everything I've done so far:
  • fresh gas, no debris/tank liner floating around
  • new fuel filters
  • injectors professionally serviced
  • checked fuel pressure -- 41 psi, ok
  • new plugs, checked good spark in both
  • new air filter
  • oil/filter change
  • cleaned big brass screws
  • checked exhaust pipe for unwelcome guests
Reading through the thread again, I realize I have not inspected the throttle cables. I will adjust free play tomorrow. I also found this thread on advrider. The posts assume a running bike, but is there something there that could help me?
 
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