Interesting theory on bike fatalities

[beemokat]

This came from moonrider, aka Wendy Moon:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HKiyOAWDyCw&mode=user&search=
I hadn't considered that the recent rise in SUV/LTVs on the road might be a factor in the recent rise of fatal bike crashes. I knew I hated those things, now I have a good argument.

Wendy's blog is at:
http://moonrider.journalspace.com/

 

[testinglogin]

Regardless of what people are driving, it's up to everyone (bikers AND cage drivers) to watch where they are going. The same goes for semi drivers and delivery truck drivers. I don't care WHAT type of vehicle it is; something crossing the center line is NOT going to be good - even if it's two cars colliding. It's easy to blame the car design, but ultimately it's inattentive drivers. If everyone was more attentive, it wouldn't be an issue.

I'd rather see cell phone bans and stricter punishment for ALL traffic offenses. I'd also like HARDER testing to get a license, and I would even support re-testing, even if it would inconvenience me... my safety is worth it. I CONSTANTLY see people ignoring "no turn on red", running stop signs (barely a "rolling" stop) not using signals (couldn't afford that option for your car??), and general reckless weaving. I had a guy pass me today on the highway - doing 90, at least. He then got into the RIGHT lane (exit only) ran that to the last minute, and then jumped back over to the left just to get past one or two vehicles. Very necessary move - I was thinking about how it would have worked if there was a bike in front of the other vehicles that he couldn't have seen at the time. Really, I'd rather see police go after the reckless stuff (high speed in heavy traffic, weaving, blatantly ignoring traffic signs/signals) than try to peg people on the highway in the middle of nowhere with no traffic for going even 10 over. Of course, the "middle of nowhere" ticket is easier - just sit and wait.

It seems society is going downhill quickly; we have quite the "ME" generation going on - as in "I don't care if it bothers you or is dangerous to you or anyone else, because I'm important, and laws and rules don't apply to ME".

 

[ultracyclist]

MCN just completed a 2 part series on bike fatalities. SUV's are mentioned.

 

[shoeman]

I would be careful of the relationship of the statistics cited in the You tube video. A quick refresher in statistics will bring a number of questions concerning conclusions drawn by the maker of the video.

Rather than deciding to "hate" something and then search for validation why not examine closely your own riding and driving style. What do you currently do while driving or riding that might contribute to a potentially unsafe situation whereby an accident might occur. A particular pet peeve of mine is when a rider or driver positions their vehicle of choice in my blind spot and stays there, varying their speeed with mine. I believe many times it is an unconcious decision to match speeds. Drivers or riders in this spot are far more likely to be involved in an accident than someone who positions themselves in a more"observable" spot. This is a small example of a behavioral pattern which can lead to increased chance of an accident. There are many others.

Secondarily I believe that in many instances enforcement decisions are made with more emphasis on revenue than safety in the USA. There is some data to bear this out, though this is not the case in all areas. Better enforcement of safe driving practices are harder to fight in court but would probably result in far fewer fatalities on the road. Germany has recognized this for some years, although I am not certain their fatality rates reflect a great difference with us. Swerving, running lights, illegal turns, aggressive driving are all significant causes of traffic accidents but are offenses rarely enforced or prosecuted. Seeing someone with a cell phone infuriates me, however studies (possibly funded by cell phone makers and providers???) show that food, conversation and the radio cause more accidents. I am also guilty of talking while driving, though I use a wireless earpiece to do so and try and restrict my calls to directions or emergencies. Much like the splits and cartwheels some people can and some can't (drive safely and talk on the phone), though much like singing well and dancing well most people believe they can (drive safely and talk).

There are too many special interest groups vying for Federal, State and Trust endowments to believe any cleverly put together video purporting to show evidence that what that group wants additional funding to study is truly accurate or even factual. Maybe I am becoming a cynic.

 

[LENRT1200ST]

As a society I think our heads and our hearts are out of balance! One w/out the other or tipping the scales in one or the other direction is an equation for trouble. We need to use our heads , but we need to give a rats put-tuti about the other guy.

No matter how careful you are, someone else can run you over. Safety is a team effort. If all are not safety conscious, no one is really safe. Then, again there is always a level of risk associated w/ any activity.

Potlickers never saw me coming....
Len

 

[sjbmw]

Let's face it. There are people in this country that believe their time is worth more than your life and the only thing that will help us is their natural selection.

When I read about an idiot that gets killed trying to outrun the police, I am never sad. One less idiot to kill me.

 

[bigrider]

I like the Japanese view of anyone with a drivers license; they are considered "professional drivers." An oft heard comment in the US such as " I didn't see the motorcycle" in a Japanese court is considered admission of guilt. All drivers should be be held responsible for their actions.

Dave H
San Antonio, TX

 

[cjack]

I would be careful of the relationship of the statistics cited in the You tube video. A quick refresher in statistics will bring a number of questions concerning conclusions drawn by the maker of the video.

SNIP

There are too many special interest groups vying for Federal, State and Trust endowments to believe any cleverly put together video purporting to show evidence that what that group wants additional funding to study is truly accurate or even factual. Maybe I am becoming a cynic.

I think there is no argument with all you point out (paragraphs that I snipped), but I think the incentive behind the SUV issue being brought to light is the federal government data brought out a year ago or so which focused on dramatically increased fatalities caused by helmet laws or lack of them. That caused others (folks also becoming cynics) to question whether the lack of a helmet caused more fatalities, or were there other changes in vehicle usage which was ignored by the feds to cleverly put forth their argument. What I think I read was that while helmets were certainly an issue or cause, whatever, it was likely that there was a considerable increase in deaths just due to body trauma, hitting these vehicles like a brick wall instead of going over them.

 

[roostershooter]

I like the Japanese view of anyone with a drivers license; they are considered "professional drivers." An oft heard comment in the US such as " I didn't see the motorcycle" in a Japanese court is considered admission of guilt. All drivers should be be held responsible for their actions.

Dave H
San Antonio, TX

I have heard that too, what a concept! I have spent alot time in my pickup since my surgery and I have really noticed that, among other things, the way that some streets are laid out, it really is not conducive to safety. For example, trees or street signs blocking the line of sight. It really lies with to the rider to do his or her utmost to survive on the road, but at the same time we musn't do anything stupid to endanger anyone else. Just this past week during the Honda Hoot, a 36 year old Michagander was riding his Harley Davidson on U.S. 129 (a.k.a. Deals Gap) he apparently was following a slower vehicle, and apparently got frustrated with the slower pace, he swung out to pass on a double yellow and promptly nailed another rider. Rider# 1 was killed , rider#2 survived but suffered injuries. People will always do stupid things, I just wish they could stay home and do that.

 

[Fritzc]

People will always do stupid things, I just wish they could stay home and do that.

Me too! I was at the RA rally in Tennessee riding around Shelbyville being very careful when I noticed a young black gal starting to pull out in front of me. I looked her straight in the eye and covered the brake and she stopped. While I was cussing under my breath, I happened to look down and notice I had my right turn signal on!
I wanted to find that young lady and give her a big hug for not killing a dumb old geezer who forgot to cancel his signal from the last turn. I'm not staying home regardless!!

 

[beemerron]

While I was cussing under my breath, I happened to look down and notice I had my right turn signal on!
I wanted to find that young lady and give her a big hug for not killing a dumb old geezer who forgot to cancel his signal from the last turn. I'm not staying home regardless!!

I occasionally forget or do not press the turn siganl cancel switch adequately after making a turn or lane change so I've adopted the habit of hitting my turn signal cancel switch whenever I see cars preparing to pull out on the right, just in case I it is still flashing.

 

[braddog]

Couldn't it be this simple?

There are more SUV's on the road these days than ever before, and more motorcycles on the road, so isn't the law of averages just saying that there would be more SUV's vs. motorcycle crashes? And if there are MORE crashes, wouldn't the unfortunate statistic be that there would be MORE fatalities?

Statistics are fun. What's that old saying again? Lies, damn lies, and statistics? You can make them portray a lot of different angles.

And what about cell phones? Anyone noticed the latest habit of people not necessarily talking while driving but text messaging while driving?

ARRRGGGHHH!

 

[Bud]

I have heard that too, what a concept! I have spent alot time in my pickup since my surgery and I have really noticed that, among other things, the way that some streets are laid out, it really is not conducive to safety. For example, trees or street signs blocking the line of sight. It really lies with to the rider to do his or her utmost to survive on the road, but at the same time we musn't do anything stupid to endanger anyone else. Just this past week during the Honda Hoot, a 36 year old Michagander was riding his Harley Davidson on U.S. 129 (a.k.a. Deals Gap) he apparently was following a slower vehicle, and apparently got frustrated with the slower pace, he swung out to pass on a double yellow and promptly nailed another rider. Rider# 1 was killed , rider#2 survived but suffered injuries. People will always do stupid things, I just wish they could stay home and do that.

Sad to hear of unnecessary loss of life.

 

[beemokat]

It's not about vaildating an opinion

I wasn't really trying to validate an opinion, the comment about SUV/LTVs was tongue firmly in cheek. The point to me was not that there are more crashes, there are after all more MCs on the roads than ever before, I think the percentage (rate) has actually dropped. It was just a factor that I hadn't considered before, and so found interesting.

"Rather than deciding to "hate" something and then search for validation why not examine closely your own riding and driving style. What do you currently do while driving or riding that might contribute to a potentially unsafe situation whereby an accident might occur. A particular pet peeve of mine is when a rider or driver positions their vehicle of choice in my blind spot and stays there, varying their speeed with mine. I believe many times it is an unconcious decision to match speeds. Drivers or riders in this spot are far more likely to be involved in an accident than someone who positions themselves in a more"observable" spot. This is a small example of a behavioral pattern which can lead to increased chance of an accident. There are many others"

 

[mika]

With more SUVs and motorcycles it is reasonable to conclude that the absolute number of accidents between the two would increase roughly at the same rate. The point being made is the impact of crashing with an SUV.

In SUV v SUV crashes the death rate is consistent with the ÔÇÿnormalÔÇÖ accident death rate in accidents involving comparable vehicles. The death rate increases as SUV v smaller vehicles is looked at and it dramatically increases when SUVs take on motorcycles. The video gives a plausible explanation for some if not many of these fatalities.

My take away from the video is at a personal level. It reminds me that I want to maintain a safety margin between me and other vehicles. I want to have an escape plan to avoid an accident all together, when possible. I want to stay away from tucks and SUVs when possible to increased my vision and decrease my impact risk.

Beyond things like that I am going to enjoy riding and do my best to keep my wits about me. (What few of those I have I can not afford to loose.)

 

[MOTOR31]

Given that the majority of vehicles on the road are larger, heavier and far far more durable than either a motorcycle or rider, there will be a significant divergence in fatalities when fatal stats are collated. In plain English, just about everything out there is bigger and tougher than your body. Do not run into them.

Evasion techniques and more importantly observation of impending problems are your number one defense. If you are not at the impact point of a collision you will not be hit. It makes no difference whether it's an SUV or a prius, if you hit it / it hits you, you will lose. Simple physics.

How YOU drive is about all you can directly control as far as traffic is concerned. You can't control the other vehicle, only your own. Drive inattentively, or stupidly, and someone somewhere will accommodate you. It's not up up the LEO's to protect you, you have to be proactive in the way you drive to avoid a collision.

 

[cruiser]

When I'm out riding I always try and have a cage in front of me running interference especially on 2 lane roads when I'm touring. I've found that it doesn't really keep me from passing and have a little fun but I sure feel safer and I believe I'm actually safer doing this. I'm no speed demon I like to lean some but I like cruising a LOT and taking in the scenery and this method takes a lot of fear out of the equation. Just my 2c

Cheers
cruiser

 

[Fritzc]

Not too close though!

When I'm out riding I always try and have a cage in front of me running interference especially on 2 lane roads when I'm touring. I've found that it doesn't really keep me from passing and have a little fun but I sure feel safer and I believe I'm actually safer doing this. I'm no speed demon I like to lean some but I like cruising a LOT and taking in the scenery and this method takes a lot of fear out of the equation. Just my 2c
Cheers
cruiser

I was following a guy in a cage the other day and he straddles a bloated 35 lb. roadkill that I did not see and of course on two wheels you cannot straddle stuff in the road. I missed, whew!

 

[brownie]

My $0.02......

Excellent thread folks......my 2 cents of opinion......

Our society is not even aware that all kinds of crashes (they are not accidents) actually happen to real people. They really do not think a crash will happen (2 or 4 wheels), and certainly not involve them!!!

Additionally......they could never be the cause of a crash!! We as a group know reality and are sensitive to lousy activity on the road......but the 4 wheelers REALLY don't think there are that many lousy drivers out there!!!!!

The experienced motorcyclist knows how to identify lousy drivers, avoid lousy drivers, and predict what these yahoos are going to do. Is it always possible????
Ofcourse not!!!! But just trying to analyse the traffic puts you light years ahead of the inattentive bozos careening around on our high ways!!!!


Rant over..............Ride Smart.......No daydreaming!!!


Shep Brown....EMS pilot

 

[BouncinBob]

I would be careful of the relationship of the statistics cited in the You tube video. A quick refresher in statistics will bring a number of questions concerning conclusions drawn by the maker of the video.

I would probably have to go to her blog, see the source of the statistics and then review them to determine the validity of her claims. But let's just assume for the moment, her statistics are valid, from a large enough sample that the standard deviation is small giving reasonable support to the claims with a small margin of error.

OK, that said. she does make a correlation saying the percentage of fatalities of MC vs SUV / LTV has increased by more than the percentage of SUV / LTV on road. If this is true, what are the contributing factors? If I remember her graphs well enough, the percentage of MC fatalities vs other vehicles has remained relatively steady. OK, unless I understand the basis of the graph, I'm not sure I can make any conclusions... never mind, let me move on.....

If SUV / LTV are killing more than their fair share of riders as compared to how many the used to kill, what is different... My take would be conplatancy... That the drivers of these larger vehicles feel invincible in these large vehicles and drive with less diligence than they did in the past. I've thought this was a contributing factor but would have to show they are involved in more accidents now as a percentage of the total registered than they used to be vs all accidents or something... (shouldn't be doing this BC <before Coffee>)

I'll shut up now.