36654
New member
A significant factor in that 1980-1990's period was the strong dollar policy of the Federal Reserve to constrain inflation. That made European imports a lot cheaper than in the 1970's.
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Is Harley-Davidson Dying?
- Thread starter gtrider
- Start date
A significant factor in that 1980-1990's period was the strong dollar policy of the Federal Reserve to constrain inflation. That made European imports a lot cheaper than in the 1970's.
pglaves
#13338
Which didn't seem to do a single thing for the British bikes; ie, BSA, Norton, old Triumph, etc.
36654
New member
And, what on Earth could have? They were, technically, deader than a door nail by the time the K-bikes were introduced.
I don't claim to understand the retail motorcycle market. What I observe when I am out in my car or on my bike is this: the bikes that I see out on the road are - Harleys. For every BMW, I'll see 10 Harleys or 15 Harleys. About half are riding 2-up. I'll see 2 sport bikes and 1 GoldWing. Any group ride you see will be almost always - Harleys, a mix of bikes and trikes. The BMW's are almost always single bikes or 2 bikes. Very seldom riding 2-up.
My current personal ride is a 1981 R100RS. The bike I liked the most was a 2004 R1150RT. Am looking for another without a gillion miles. We (my wife rides her own bike) have owned many new and used BMW bikes. R65, R80RT, R100RT's, R1100RT, K1200RS, R1150RT's and R1200RT's. The newer RT's simply sit too tall for me when trying to ride 2-up. I'm 5'11" with a 31" inseam so I'm not a short runt. The real issue for every manufacturer is price. Harley does not have any entry level bikes for the guy/gal just out of college working in their first job. I don't know about BMW with the F700 and F900 as entry level bikes. One can gush over the 310 single all one wants, but if I'm a 24 yr old guy in my first real job and you're wanting me to say I ride a 310cc single (if it's not a off road dirt bike) - it ain't happening. There is simply no "Cool" in that.
I don't know that electric bikes are the "Future" of motorcycling anymore than they are the future of cars. The usage is simply not there. There is no way around the range of operation and the time required to recharge. Nor is there any foreseeable material breakthroughs to eliminate the rare earth material availability, cost, toxicity and disposability issues.
My current personal ride is a 1981 R100RS. The bike I liked the most was a 2004 R1150RT. Am looking for another without a gillion miles. We (my wife rides her own bike) have owned many new and used BMW bikes. R65, R80RT, R100RT's, R1100RT, K1200RS, R1150RT's and R1200RT's. The newer RT's simply sit too tall for me when trying to ride 2-up. I'm 5'11" with a 31" inseam so I'm not a short runt. The real issue for every manufacturer is price. Harley does not have any entry level bikes for the guy/gal just out of college working in their first job. I don't know about BMW with the F700 and F900 as entry level bikes. One can gush over the 310 single all one wants, but if I'm a 24 yr old guy in my first real job and you're wanting me to say I ride a 310cc single (if it's not a off road dirt bike) - it ain't happening. There is simply no "Cool" in that.
I don't know that electric bikes are the "Future" of motorcycling anymore than they are the future of cars. The usage is simply not there. There is no way around the range of operation and the time required to recharge. Nor is there any foreseeable material breakthroughs to eliminate the rare earth material availability, cost, toxicity and disposability issues.
I watched a video a while back and that is what he said. We will all go over to electric voluntarily. It will get to the point where between maintenance and gas prices we will gladly go electric. He wasn't claiming gas prices will go up, just that electric cars cost to buy and maintain will be much less than what we are paying for a gasser. Tesla has a goal of a million mile car with zero maintenance, other than tires, and it will cost less than most cars in today's market.
Harley Davidson of course. They have had around 50% of the market for years with just about every part replaceable with aftermarket upgrades, they will be around forever.
A friend of mine just came by with an AMF Super Glide he has had for 35 years- still goin’ and marking it’s territory.
OM
Sonny Barger stated in his book that he would probably ride a BMW (or Honda) if not a Harley.
gtrider
52184
No probably about it; he was photographed several times astride his boxer RT.
Best,
DeVern
36654
New member
I can't say for the bad guys, but the typical HD owner wants that low altitude, Barcalounger / LazyBoy reclined riding position. That's America for them and their knees.
I took BRC instructor training with a group of HD riders and one of the range bikes was a G310. While I was unimpressed with the set-up of the G310, the fuel injection was too lean for low RPM operation and the rear brake peddle is in a strange location, the HD guys couldn't understand how anyone could "fold" themselves into that thing. However, by the end of the training, a couple of the HD guys developed a real fondness for the Suzuki TU250's. So, there is hope....
eydo
New member
I wanted to love a Harley-Davidson bike and looked and looked but always came back with "do I want a 60's muscle car today ?". I think that is the problem for me with HD. They are stuck with an old engine and a heavy clumsy frame that doesn't handle well and is actually low on hp compared to the competition. I'm ok with them keeping that too but they need to be more modern and creative, especially with the engines. I mean look at BMW, we have 6 cylinders, inline 4's, boxer engines with shift cam and water cooled... They also have every category covered too like adventure, racing ,touring, dirt...All the Japanese and Italian bikes have diversity too. HD on the other hand is all about cruising, riding slow in parade-mode with limited lean angles (which in my opinion is the thrill of motorcycle riding).
I wouldn't mind having an HD in my stable for diversity and noise pollution but here is their second major problem; the entrance fee is too high for an old clunker like that to just change bikes once in a while for diversity. I just can't see me having just one bike and it being an HD. I'd feel like I was missing out on the modern world.
Granted HD is now introducing modern things like an all electric bike and so forth but the essence of the market is not yet that cutting edge but a great all around bike like BMW's GS bikes or cutting edge performance bikes like the S1000 bikes (I love my S1000XR for example) or great touring bikes like the RT's or K1600's. I'm a design engineer leading several R&D groups in my career and my direction was always to out do the competition in a leap-frog manner to try and stay ahead of the competition. Today you see this with BMW, Ducati, Yamaha, Kawasaki... but not HD or Indian who are all about "old school".
Is it too late for them? My BMW dealer is actually an HD dealer too and I see who buys what when I hang out there. Both brands are very expensive and both brands suffer reliability problems so in this regard they are on an even playing fields but the BMW customers are a more diversified group from high end professionals to younger new riders while the HD crowd is just 'wannabees' middle aged beer drinking rougher snobbish crowd wanting to belong to a cult with an occasional professional. Here is the interesting thing about the clientele in my observation, BMW clientele look at all the bikes including the HD bikes while the HD clientele will only look at the HD bikes. Interesting.
I wouldn't mind having an HD in my stable for diversity and noise pollution but here is their second major problem; the entrance fee is too high for an old clunker like that to just change bikes once in a while for diversity. I just can't see me having just one bike and it being an HD. I'd feel like I was missing out on the modern world.
Granted HD is now introducing modern things like an all electric bike and so forth but the essence of the market is not yet that cutting edge but a great all around bike like BMW's GS bikes or cutting edge performance bikes like the S1000 bikes (I love my S1000XR for example) or great touring bikes like the RT's or K1600's. I'm a design engineer leading several R&D groups in my career and my direction was always to out do the competition in a leap-frog manner to try and stay ahead of the competition. Today you see this with BMW, Ducati, Yamaha, Kawasaki... but not HD or Indian who are all about "old school".
Is it too late for them? My BMW dealer is actually an HD dealer too and I see who buys what when I hang out there. Both brands are very expensive and both brands suffer reliability problems so in this regard they are on an even playing fields but the BMW customers are a more diversified group from high end professionals to younger new riders while the HD crowd is just 'wannabees' middle aged beer drinking rougher snobbish crowd wanting to belong to a cult with an occasional professional. Here is the interesting thing about the clientele in my observation, BMW clientele look at all the bikes including the HD bikes while the HD clientele will only look at the HD bikes. Interesting.
robertov416
New member
I ride all year in SW Ohio. What you say is true about 3 months out of the year. On the shoulder seasons above 60F, it's about even non-Harley vs Harleys, below that I see more European and Japanese bikes. In the dead of winter, a Harley sighting is a rare thing indeed.
Don’t know what planet you’re riding on.
I did a 250 mile ride on 17 May in central Pennsylvania.
A very conservative estimate would be at least 50 Harley-Davidsons to every motorcycle of any other brand.
Number of BMW sightings?
Two.
Additionally, wintertime Harley-Davidson riders far out number any other motorcycle brand. Anywhere.
Even in Ohio.
gregfeeler
Dances With Sheep
The video dude has it correctly, and from my study of trends, for several reasons. First, and most importantly, the Millennial generation and the ones following them are extremely concerned about climate change, and they blame the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE). Burning fossil fuels when there are less or non-polluting alternatives is quickly becoming the transportation equivalent of smoking.
Secondly, there will be breakthrough battery technologies which will dramatically increase the current capacity and reduce recharge time limitations. IBM has announced a new battery technology which can be produced with elements extracted from sea water - no more rare early minerals mostly located in China: https://thehill.com/changing-americ...477764-ibm-tests-batteries-made-from-seawater. No one really sees the enabling technology coming because it is not predictable. Transistors vs. tubes and integrated circuits vs. transistors, and so on.
Thirdly, with increases in capacity, battery vehicles will be able to satisfy the vast majority of individual transportation needs, and the inherent maintenance and reliability advantages of battery powered vehicles will become an almost insurmountable justification. Compare your gas-powered lawn mower with the current generation of battery mowers. The battery mower now will cut on a par with gas in 95% of the cases, and but for blade sharpening, require no maintenance or fuel. They always start and are much quieter. Two years ago I bought a new gas mower, but now I need another for a second property and will be buying a battery model
Oh, really?
gregfeeler
Dances With Sheep
Based on what I see in the Idaho area, numerically there are far more Harley riders than any other brand. However, since there are about as many Harley's as all other brands combined, that is not surprising. We who ride one of the "other brands" tend to make too much of the cruiser posers, but I've met a large number of long distance Harley riders out in the middle of nowhere.
+1
I have no interest in owning one. And I dread getting caught behind a rolling roadblock on a mountain road. But if you have ever seen the sheer quantity of Harley traffic near Sturgis in early August then you can’t help but have respect for the high milers among them.
Think of it as “The Harley Hajj.” They wobble their way there from all over the world.
