• Welcome, Guest! We hope you enjoy the excellent technical knowledge, event information and discussions that the BMW MOA forum provides. Some forum content will be hidden from you if you remain logged out. If you want to view all content, please click the 'Log in' button above and enter your BMW MOA username and password.

    If you are not an MOA member, why not take the time to join the club, so you can enjoy posting on the forum, the BMW Owners News magazine, and all of the discounts and benefits the BMW MOA offers?

  • Beginning April 1st, and running through April 30th, there is a new 2024 BMW MOA Election discussion area within The Club section of the forum. Within this forum area is also a sticky post that provides the ground rules for participating in the Election forum area. Also, the candidates statements are provided. Please read before joining the conversation, because the rules are very specific to maintain civility.

    The Election forum is here: Election Forum

Not a fatality if wearing a helmet?

Knock it off! Don't malign folks who's approach is different that your own. I do know engineers who make sense, and I do know engineers who make no sense at all to me. I also know 8th grade graduates who make sense and high school grads and college grads that don't.

I happen to have an advanced degree in a non engineering field that focuses on problem solving, be it health care or infrastructure, or nuclear proliferation. It is not the topic. It is the process. I am not at all interested in anecdotes or opinions. I look for facts and conclusions based on those facts. The rest is nonsense. Carry on.
 
rick601 said:
I liked the logic of your statistical observation, and indeed found some comfort in it (I don't drink wear my gear and have an MC license). I AM curious about the source of the license factor- the other two are typically mentioned in most reportage- I've never heard the license mentioned (unless an illegal immigrant was driving- where ,till recently, lack of license could be assumed. So where'd you get that one as a significant factor?
Click to expand...

http://www.motorcycleinstitute.org/data/

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812046

http://www.motorcycleinstitute.org/data/#data

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812785

Relative to the license issue, I can't speak for all states, but in PA you can purchase a MC without a MC endorsement on your drivers license. IIRC about 25% of our crash fatalities are riders that have never bothered get an MC endorsement.
 
36654 said:
Relative to the license issue, I can't speak for all states, but in PA you can purchase a MC without a MC endorsement on your drivers license. IIRC about 25% of our crash fatalities are riders that have never bothered get an MC endorsement.
Click to expand...

But is the lack of an MC endorsement causation, or simply an artifact? (Correlation does not equal causation in many cases.) In your example, a person buys a new bike in PA without a license, but with the intention of practicing a bit before applying for the endorsement. During those practice sessions, he is killed in a crash.

Is the lack of an endorsement a contributing factor...or the lack of experience? Much of the crash data measure one, but not the other.

Pete
 
I wonder if there is any correlation between accidents and miles ridden? I would think that experience would reduce the chances of an accident.
 
PoorUB said:
I wonder if there is any correlation between accidents and miles ridden? I would think that experience would reduce the chances of an accident.
Click to expand...

I would think that while the odds of an accident on a single ride may be low, the odds increase with number of rides. For example if the odds of getting hit by lightning standing in a field during a storm are 1:100, then the chance of getting hit doing it 100 times are virtually 100%. So while I may be a safer rider after 100 rides, my odds are still greater, even though my “experience “ lowered the odds on each individual ride.
 
glenfiddich said:
But is the lack of an MC endorsement causation, or simply an artifact? (Correlation does not equal causation in many cases.) In your example, a person buys a new bike in PA without a license, but with the intention of practicing a bit before applying for the endorsement. During those practice sessions, he is killed in a crash.

Is the lack of an endorsement a contributing factor...or the lack of experience? Much of the crash data measure one, but not the other.

Pete
Click to expand...

Well, they’re potentially operating a vehicle on the public streets with no training or exam. To me, that seems to be a non-optimal situation.
 
rick601 said:
I would think that while the odds of an accident on a single ride may be low, the odds increase with number of rides. ...
Click to expand...
Actually statistics don't work that way. Your odds are your odds, different day doesn't change anything. Seems wrong, but its right. :scratch
 
rick601 said:
I would think that while the odds of an accident on a single ride may be low, the odds increase with number of rides. For example if the odds of getting hit by lightning standing in a field during a storm are 1:100, then the chance of getting hit doing it 100 times are virtually 100%. So while I may be a safer rider after 100 rides, my odds are still greater, even though my “experience “ lowered the odds on each individual ride.
Click to expand...


I will agree that the risk if an accident might increase with miles ridden, but then drop again as experience increases. Also miles ridden per year would matter more than total miles over a lifetime. In other words, some that rides 1,000 miles a year for twenty years doesn't hold the same value as some that rides 10,000 per year. In the last 15 years I have ridden 200,000 miles and one off road adventure that was not very serious. I work with a guy that put on 1,000 miles a year for fourteen years and darn near killed himself a couple years back. He stopped ridding. I have had cars pull out in front of me that I avoided and have no idea how I did it, all reaction, no thought process, just toss the motorcycle over, then back and whip around the car, missed them by that much! My wife has been on back and commented on how the heck I avoided it.
 
The notion that a rider with no training and limited experience could buy a Hayabusa or S1000RR and hop on and head out into traffic is absurd. But it is true in most states. Sheesh!
 
CABNFVR said:
Actually statistics don't work that way. Your odds are your odds, different day doesn't change anything. Seems wrong, but its right. :scratch
Click to expand...

Like if you flip a coin heads fifty times in a row, the odds of heads on the 51st flip are still 50/50...statistically true but I don't think I'd let all my winnings ride on the 51st flip!

Related in a way: If I have one foot in a bucket of boiling water and one in a bucket of ice...on average I'm quite comfortable.

or: My parents stopped having kids after 3 of us because they read that every fourth child born is Chinese

<<<rim shot>>>
 
PGlaves said:
The notion that a rider with no training and limited experience could buy a Hayabusa or S1000RR and hop on and head out into traffic is absurd. But it is true in most states. Sheesh!
Click to expand...

You would not believe the folks that attend my classes and want to buy a Sport bike...... even though they passed on a Scooter!!!!
 
PGlaves said:
The notion that a rider with no training and limited experience could buy a Hayabusa or S1000RR and hop on and head out into traffic is absurd. But it is true in most states. Sheesh!
Click to expand...

Why is that absurd? Ill-advised? Maybe. Dangerous? Possibly.

If the great wonder called "the State" sees fit to act as accreditation authority (which is the actual absurdity here) and grants said rider an endorsement, what's the problem? As licensure is clearly just a racketeering scheme supported by the State, is the idea to increase the revenue the State collects?

No, thanks.

You pay your money, you get your stuff. Warning: it might kill you. You might hurt someone else.

In other news, life is wildly unfair and inequitable.

Enjoy!
 
36654 said:
Well, they’re potentially operating a vehicle on the public streets with no training or exam. To me, that seems to be a non-optimal situation.
Click to expand...

It's optimal if they're doing it at Disney World or The Sea Ranch (i.e, on private roads)?
 
36654 said:
Well, they’re potentially operating a vehicle on the public streets with no training or exam. To me, that seems to be a non-optimal situation.
Click to expand...

Decades ago, before being allowed to ride my bike onto MCB Camp Lejeune, I had to take a very intensive two week long course. Having spent my teen years on dirt bikes the hands on portion was easy, but the things I learned about threats I'd never even considered before have kept me aware - and safe - through the years.

Skip forward 35 years and I took the MSF course with my wife so she wouldn't feel alone. I was appalled at how little of value was covered! It prepared her for low speed putting around an empty parking lot. But she got her endorsement.

My point is that the presence of an M on your license is not a good indicator of competence. But neither is experience as evidenced by those who have been riding for years repeating the same ride and the same mistakes time after time.

Pete
 
glenfiddich said:
Decades ago, before being allowed to ride my bike onto MCB Camp Lejeune, I had to take a very intensive two week long course. Having spent my teen years on dirt bikes the hands on portion was easy, but the things I learned about threats I'd never even considered before have kept me aware - and safe - through the years.

Skip forward 35 years and I took the MSF course with my wife so she wouldn't feel alone. I was appalled at how little of value was covered! It prepared her for low speed putting around an empty parking lot. But she got her endorsement.

My point is that the presence of an M on your license is not a good indicator of competence. But neither is experience as evidenced by those who have been riding for years repeating the same ride and the same mistakes time after time.

Pete
Click to expand...

The Marine Corps provided the impetus for what is now called the Advanced Rider Course. The Army and MC were suffering significant loss to motorcycle accidents. Soldiers and Marines were coming home from deployments with cash saved while they had no place to spend it and buying the high powered bike of their dreams. More were injured and killed on their motorcycles than in combat.
 
jr31 said:
Why is that absurd? Ill-advised? Maybe. Dangerous? Possibly.

If the great wonder called "the State" sees fit to act as accreditation authority (which is the actual absurdity here) and grants said rider an endorsement, what's the problem? As licensure is clearly just a racketeering scheme supported by the State, is the idea to increase the revenue the State collects?

No, thanks.

You pay your money, you get your stuff. Warning: it might kill you. You might hurt someone else.

In other news, life is wildly unfair and inequitable.

Enjoy!
Click to expand...

Reading comprehension counts. Reread my post. I was referring to folks buying these bikes without having an endorsement: "no training and limited experience" is what I wrote Your anti-state diatribe notwithstanding I continue to say no license, no purchase. Sure, this will in some cases lead to strawman purchases but at least it reinforces the notion that actually having some training and a license is a good idea before you buy a superbike.
 
PGlaves said:
Reading comprehension counts. Reread my post. I was referring to folks buying these bikes without having an endorsement: "no training and limited experience" is what I wrote Your anti-state diatribe notwithstanding I continue to say no license, no purchase. Sure, this will in some cases lead to strawman purchases but at least it reinforces the notion that actually having some training and a license is a good idea before you buy a superbike.
Click to expand...

Does it? I'm not sure you understand what you've written. And it's certainly clear you definitely don't understand what I have written.

Let's make it easier, shall we? Why should anyone have an endorsement/license? Because you say so?

Your pro-State/anti-results bias notwithstanding, nothing you suggest extends beyond contribution to a racket. Tell your friends; you heard it here.

Good ideas infrequently require force. Make no mistake, force is what you are suggesting.
 
I bought Yamaha R1 a couple years back, never been on a sportbike, but 50 years of riding experience. Freaking thing was scary fast. I can't imagine selling one to a 19 year old with zero riding experience. Some states have a step system in place for motorcycle endorsement. You need to spend some time on a smaller size motorcycle before you can move up to a larger bike. Might be two, three steps to get on a 1,000 cc.
 
jr31 said:
Let's make it easier, shall we? Why should anyone have an endorsement/license? Because you say so?
Click to expand...

Of course not! It is because it is the law in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. You don't like those laws. That is your right. But until those laws are changed your opinion doesn't really matter as to whether an endorsement is or isn't required.

As to whether it is a good idea, I agree that some training in some states sucks. But your anarchist viewpoint won't change that either.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

pettynerd
Carry on helmet bag
Replies
7
Views
329
rpr1200rt
R
akbeemer
NHTSA 2020 Motorcyle Safety Facts
Replies
5
Views
1K
adamchandler
adamchandler
B
Food for Thought?
2
Replies
21
Views
4K
brownie0486
brownie0486
M
Full face or Modular helmet ?
2
Replies
36
Views
4K
martinph
martinph
robertsco
Helmet communication system
Replies
17
Views
2K
60aviator
6
Back
Top