We do own this site....right?

Oldhway said:

I was part of the proposal team, and although frustrated with it's progress, I am satisfied that the time elapsed is not because the proposal is either being ignored nor was it DOA.

I support a current events, including politics, forum area for those who find those things interesting. In an election year in particular, I believe discussions among friends are useful sounding boards to help with decision making. I would not feel comfortable being in a group who was afraid to talk about common and important topics and I very much have come to find this forum a place where I meet and build friendships.

I also agree that any such forum should not be dominated by "just a few", however, if you were to look at almost any forum section here, you will find that there are a limited number of people who are prevalent in those areas. Other folks come and go, but it seems that each section has it's core posters, folks who find that area particlarly captivating. Some folks like to be invloved alot, some comment occaisionally, some just like to observe. If we used the number of regular, as opposed to occaisional, posters as a criteria to eliminate forum areas, we'd have to shut down the Campfire for one.

I think that a solid policy for interaction of posters, and consistant adherance to that policy, is all that is needed to discuss almost any subject. I believe keeping discussions PG, whatever the subject matter, is wise. I also believe that folks can pick and choose where they participate and everyone has different interests. Those interests change from day to day. What doesn't interest you today, may fascinate you tomorrow. When I sold my R1150Rt, I started spending far less time in the Oilhead forum, but since I'm looking for an Airhead to restore, the Airheads forum now has great interest for me.

The MOA forum is different. I think that difference helps to build relationships among the members. And relationships, friendships, are what will build a club more than anything else. And those relationships are built by treating one another with mutual respect.

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I assume you know this because you are a guest mod?

The rest of us don't have that insight into the process. The rest of us just have to guess and it is human nature to guess the worst.


Communication is a two way street. Would like to have some coming back from the mod team in response to this issue.

knary said:

One man's idiot is another man's prophet.



p.s. I wheelied my GS yesterday.

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Yes, very true and very sad. Can you remember Waco or Jim Jones? The "prophet" led them to their deaths.

And I expect you to wheelie every chance you can get. You are a rebel without a cause. Tilt away.

The only "discussion" regarding the election that has any bearing on anything is the one that happens in November. Until then we're stuck with the constant bombardment of adds print, verbal and video. I for one am tired of the electioneering and BS conversations about it. IMO the election process should be limited to 6 months, start to election.

I really enjoy a good heated political discussion. I tend to play devils advocate any time I can. I really enjoy seeing what side appears to be dominate in the conversation and I try to swing the exact opposite way. I like to take the most extreme view of a topic. One thing for sure I never resort to name calling or back biting not matter what. I do not allow myself to be pulled from the particular topic. I can see how when you begin to loose an argument it is very easy to say "Screw you guys I'm going home" But the real test is to see if you can talk about a subject without letting emotion become involved. I know with politics and religion we feel very attached and emotional. Kind of like when someone says your kid fouled someone in a basketball game and you instantly hate that person. We hold our beliefs very close to our hearts so we find it almost impossible to keep our emotions out of the equation. I have decided to answer my own question here and you can tell me what you think. There is no place for politics in this particular forum, except....If we are discussing particular legislation that could impact motorcycles and our livelyhood. Damn! another Sunday in Iraq and no bike to ride. 7 more days till vacation and a date with my RT.

Kelly

Random thoughts and observations on the topic before I go for an evening ride:

I really enjoy a good political discussion; I am just very careful where I have it.

I hold opposing views on this subject. I miss the presence of many of the names Sue listed and others. I think we lost more than we gained from DGT or will from the Tavern. At the same time I support the idea of the forum addition even though I doubt I will use it much.

Why does anyone think the new forum would be up before the first Tuesday after the first Monday of November?

What is the role Board in this? When asked for permission to run something on the forum I was told they did not control the forum. Now the fall Board meeting has a role in this discussion. DonÔÇÖt understand, understand, and probably am not that concerned to need a real answer.

An adult conversation on politics around here. we struggle to have adult conversations on things like final drives and rally sites.

Now I can ride and wonder about other things.

knary said:

One man's idiot is another man's prophet.



p.s. I wheelied my GS yesterday.

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Did you take a picture? If not, you're an idi......

RM

SIBUD said:

I assume you know this because you are a guest mod?

The rest of us don't have that insight into the process. The rest of us just have to guess and it is human nature to guess the worst.


Communication is a two way street. Would like to have some coming back from the mod team in response to this issue.

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Actually, no. I know this because I am the guy who submitted it and has been working with Lee to try to keep the process moving forward. They made me a guest Mod despite that. As far as I know, the mod team has not yet seen it.

if people are upset that it's taking too long, then those people are upset only with me. there is no conspiracy, the proposal is on my desk. its progress is hampered because i am a simple man, and i have three simple priorities in my life:

1. family
2. career
3. MOA forums

it's also been slowed down because i have a tendency to think in the long term. the way we create and shape the MOA forums will endure for years, hopefully longer if we do it in a patient, mindful fashion. the work we do here is not just for us, it's for those who come after us. on that time scale, six months is not a long time.

doing things Right, at the Right Time, in the Right Way is much more important than doing them as quickly as possible.

Shouldn't it be.

1. Family
2. Career
3. Riding the hill country
4. Taste testing as many kinds of beer as possible (I love Shiner)
5. Advil
6. MOA Forums

Oh yeah, a shower probably should be in there somewhere also.

Mika said:

Random thoughts and observations on the topic before I go for an evening ride:

I really enjoy a good political discussion; I am just very careful where I have it.

I hold opposing views on this subject. I miss the presence of many of the names Sue listed and others. I think we lost more than we gained from DGT or will from the Tavern. At the same time I support the idea of the forum addition even though I doubt I will use it much.

Why does anyone think the new forum would be up before the first Tuesday after the first Monday of November?

What is the role Board in this? When asked for permission to run something on the forum I was told they did not control the forum. Now the fall Board meeting has a role in this discussion. DonÔÇÖt understand, understand, and probably am not that concerned to need a real answer.

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Board policy is that the volunteer Forum Administration Team - as headed by the Forum Liaison (and soon a Forum Administrator) make all the key decisions about the daily operation of the forum. This includes selection of moderators, the moderation effort, and new forums. These things must conform to the larger objectives of the BMW MOA and be for the overall good of the membership. Ultimately, the Board is responsible for all the deliverables of the entire organization, but with when dealing with an overwhelmingly volunteer crew, there is a necessary degree of latitude required.

You had asked the Board for permission to run an all-year mileage contest on the forum. There is nothing in that proposal that requires Board approval. It does not conflict with the posting and moderation guidelines, and would likely be of interest to a large number of members (and non-members). If the Moderation Team were to set up a dedicated forum to make this even more accessible, that would be a great example of how they can facilitate the member's use of this resource. If, OTOH, they were to "ban" it, then that might be cause for you to approach the Board with a grievance. (On a personal note, I think it's a great idea, and I hope you follow through with it.)

I'm belaboring this point only to make the larger example of how the forum is, and should be run. As overall policy, this forum is not meant to provide any and every possible "experience" to our members. The model is a "virtual BMW MOA rally". These are family events, and it follows that there are things at some rally and bike events that you won't see at an 'MOA rally. These things are available at those events, and at other sites on the Internet. You should have expectations for every site you visit. Is what we are now carved in stone? Not at all. Over the next few years I expect the BMW MOA will have new members with different interests. We will evolve to meet the expectations of our members. The key point about having the Forum Team manage the forum is that they are to reflect the needs and wants of the membership over time. I was involved in the discussions by the group who has proposed the "Tavern On the Screen" and I have great respect for the way they have approached this idea. Personally, I think it will add a lot of "depth" and "character".

An adult conversation on politics around here. we struggle to have adult conversations on things like final drives and rally sites.

Now I can ride and wonder about other things.

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Exactly! It was good to see you in Gillette, and have a chance to talk a little (not enough, unfortunately). To make it clear to all, the current BMW MOA Board of Directors is dedicated to bi-directional communications with the membership. We are working on ways to better inform the members of what's being done, and why, and in return, we're relying on the members to let us know what they think we should do. As a volunteer organization, we all can play a part. The forum is a way - but really catch-as-catch-can. If you want to speak directly to the Board, send an email to board@bmwmoa.org.

ARValkguy said:

I really enjoy a good heated political discussion. I tend to play devils advocate any time I can. I really enjoy seeing what side appears to be dominate in the conversation and I try to swing the exact opposite way. I like to take the most extreme view of a topic. One thing for sure I never resort to name calling or back biting not matter what. I do not allow myself to be pulled from the particular topic. I can see how when you begin to loose an argument it is very easy to say "Screw you guys I'm going home" But the real test is to see if you can talk about a subject without letting emotion become involved. I know with politics and religion we feel very attached and emotional. Kind of like when someone says your kid fouled someone in a basketball game and you instantly hate that person. We hold our beliefs very close to our hearts so we find it almost impossible to keep our emotions out of the equation. I have decided to answer my own question here and you can tell me what you think. There is no place for politics in this particular forum, except....If we are discussing particular legislation that could impact motorcycles and our livelyhood. Damn! another Sunday in Iraq and no bike to ride. 7 more days till vacation and a date with my RT.

Kelly

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That's too bad. I was looking forward to reading some of your arguments.

I don't understand why we place the blame for bad behavior on the topics we discuss when the fault lies with the person behaving badly. Doghouse the perpetrator not the discussion.

Tom

Statdawg said:

Sue

Thank you for your input and service.

How many times does the Board meet during the year officially ? Meaning the in person meetings at a site and the official phone conference call meetings ? I am counting the phone conference calls as official. Because in my minds eye during this time minutes from previous in person meetings are approved. If meetings are approved then they are official under Robert's Rules which the MOA is subject to due to the organizational bylaws. Correct or not correct ?

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The Board of Directors meets in person a minimum of four times a year, approximately every quarter, including a much abbreviated meeting during the International Rally. Typical Board meetings run 10 to 12 hours, whereas the Rally meeting is about two hours. These meetings are divided between Open (public) Sessions, and Executive (closed) Sessions.

In between those meetings, the Board has a number of conference calls. One is specifically limited to the approval of the Open Session meeting minutes so they can be published quickly in the Owners News and on the web site. All other conference calls where the Board can make official decisions are announced in advance in conformance with the ByLaws. These are Closed Sessions. Some calls are for general communication and do not allow the Board to take any action. These are scheduled as needed. Nothing in this process is to exclude member involvement - it's just a reflection of the necessities of running this kind of an organization.

I would think with the magnitude of National rallies and on-site involvement with the Board required in Johnson City. Then a tiny web window would not demand much attention and could easily be reviewed during the phone conference call meeting. Since it has the power to approve meeting minutes then it is official business. Then this application to the forum can move on or be eliminated in a timely manner.

I am not degrading ones involvement, lack of experience, or hours one choose to do volunteering for the MOA. I very well know that people here are "just volunteers". But I also know that they chose the run and seek a high volunteer calling so lets just stick to the official meeting inquiry and getting the web window fixed or removed.

Really five months waiting because this one works or this one has this or that is poor planning. Really if you don't have the time for the MOA then why in the name of BMW did you throw your helmet in the ring ? After all I volunteered my time to help write the proposal. I am just a volunteer knowing my time limits and am happy to do my part.

Sorry, I am just trying to understand the process. Maybe even write and submit a proposal to streamline future projects. Since time is an issue mixed in the official unofficial business, now wait a minute or months, we are volunteer world of the MOA.

Signed confused

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I hear what you are saying, and will offer this, "It's not that the bear dances poorly, but that the bear dances at all." What I mean is that volunteer organizations by their nature have to rely on the "kindness of strangers" to achieve their ends. The BMW MOA is blessed with the talents of some very highly skilled people, who earn day-job pay rates we could never afford. The Pro bono work we get from them is why we even exist today, but the trade off is that we get it when they can provide it. Still, I also understand that there are greater expectations from those who seek or accept higher offices in the organization. The art of management of such volatile resources lies in balancing the needs of the organization with reasonable expectations of these volunteers.

Honestly, because of the work and focus on the International Rally, combined with everyone's desire to ride during the summer months, many projects slow down during the riding season. We are now approaching the fall season, and the activity level has already picked up accordingly.

Statdawg said:

No it is

God
Family
and football. Really everything else is a distraction.

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we're on the 20 yard line this year, so i'm pumped up about our seats. however, i attend the games with my wife, so i am able to roll them into category 2. [pumps fist]

thomasseigler said:

That's too bad. I was looking forward to reading some of your arguments.

I don't understand why we place the blame for bad behavior on the topics we discuss when the fault lies with the person behaving badly. Doghouse the perpetrator not the discussion.

Tom

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Very, VERY, well said!

Greg, thank you for your response to my ramblings. They did clear my head for the ride which I enjoyed very much.

Josh I agree with you in principle. I would prefer to see offending posts deleted or offending parts redacted and allow threads to continue.

Mika said:

Greg, thank you for your response to my ramblings. They did clear my head for the ride which I enjoyed very much.

Josh I agree with you in principle. I would prefer to see offending posts deleted or offending parts redacted and allow threads to continue.

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Statdawg said:

Come on Knary you can type faster !

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Does it show that I was "replying to topic"?

thomasseigler said:

That's too bad. I was looking forward to reading some of your arguments.

I don't understand why we place the blame for bad behavior on the topics we discuss when the fault lies with the person behaving badly. Doghouse the perpetrator not the discussion.

Tom

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"In polite company, one does not discuss Religion, Politics, Sex, or Money." These subjects are or can be of a very personal nature. As such, it is very difficult to have a discerning discussion as one's views almost invariably touch close to one's core beliefs - beliefs that are almost built of stone for an individual.

Further, while it might seem that reasonable people can agree that different conclusions can be reasonably drawn from the same information, the very definition of "reasonable" pivots on those conclusions. If those conclusions are about the above subjects, it can be difficult for the opposing view to not be seen as unreasonable.

And when you're talking to someone that's saying something that you believe to be not just wrong but the words of a nutjob*, it takes a better person than most to find the high road.

Mix in the awkwardness of on-line communication and the breadth of views in a club whose members are here because of a fairly tenuous connection built on a fondness for a form of transportation and we've got a recipe for anything but polite discourse.

*nutjob = unreasonable person

username said:

doing things Right, at the Right Time, in the Right Way is much more important than doing them as quickly as possible.

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capital letters! oooooo, y'all better be listening.