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what are the chances?

this debate has been hashed, rehashed and cornbeefhashed to death.

....snip....

there is no question whatsoever that sidestand is more secure than c-stand.

IMO, there's no question it's a personal observation...I would argue the more secure aspect. In my situation, using non-inch size tires definitely reduced the lean angle of an Airhead on the sidestand. You get one of them more vertical, a puff of wind will blow the bike over self-retracting sidestand or not.
 
this debate has been hashed, rehashed and cornbeefhashed to death.

consider this; on c-stand, you have a very narrow isosceles triangle as your base (one wheel, & 2 contact points that are inches apart at the c-stand). on the sidestand, you have a very much larger triangle to support the bike (2 wheels, and one larger contact point of sidestnad).

there is no question whatsoever that sidestand is more secure than c-stand. the only time c-stand wins out is for doing work on the bike on solid flat ground (garage, pavement, etc), or when bike is on display (again- solid flat ground).

the only caveat acting against this is if you have a spring loaded sidestand that when weight/tension on it is released, it folds to upright position. I had a mid-90s Duc like that; remove any weight from the sidestand, and up it came! the "tweak" to remove the "sidestand up" feature was soon employed. some airheads have a similar feature, and disabling it is often done to pre-emptively avoid the windy tipover.

I ditto Kurt's observation - non-inch tires or not!

My experience has been that on solid ground, the sidestand will be perfectly stable unless someone touches the bike. But then you also have the "lean" issue with the boxers. But if I am on stable solid ground, I will always use the centerstand (no "lean" issue, and I think the bike is harder to knock over if someone should try to mess with it.

The clincher for me, is that I have seen, when using the sidestand on let's say, grassy areas, that the stand will tend to "cut" in to the ground and the bike will "walk" forward to the point where the stand would fold. I had that almost happen. Of course, the centerstand on softer ground would probably not be very good either.

The issue is not worth fighting about - except for the "lean" issue to boxer engines - but only if there is something to that, and I think there is!
 
These were huge trucks carrying big steel bands, whoa!

Dang!! How many steel bands were there on that truck anyhoo ?!?!?!

71207_104cb103f36c4b039caca95ae24d03a9.jpg
 
Agreed!

Paul calls it my mechanic stand because that's the ONLY time I use the center stand!

Voni
sMiling
 
Imagine a football player on the line of scrimmage with his feet together instead of spread out. That's the principal of the wider aspect of using the side stand. On the centerstand, you only have 2 points of contact at the centerstand and one point of contact with the rear tire, and they are all in the same plane, basically. Heck, I've knocked my bike over on the centerstand by just hitting it with my knee whilst mounting.
 
Imagine a football player on the line of scrimmage with his feet together instead of spread out. That's the principal of the wider aspect of using the side stand. On the centerstand, you only have 2 points of contact at the centerstand and one point of contact with the rear tire, and they are all in the same plane, basically. Heck, I've knocked my bike over on the centerstand by just hitting it with my knee whilst mounting.

I don't think that analog really works that well. What if you push on the chest of the football player?

Theoretically, if I can visualize this right, it takes essentially the same amount of force to push a bike over on the center or sidestand...plus or minus. Pick a point to push on. The only way the bike is going to tip over is if the CG gets outside the supports on the ground. So, for the sidestand, you start pushing and only until you get the CG to go beyond two contact points of the tires, then the bike will fall over. Obviously, for the auto-retract sidestand, it's kind of worse, because if you push just a bit and the stand retracts, the only thing keeping the bike up at that point is side pushing force. So for the sidestand situation, you either push for a short period of time, the stand retracts or you continuous push to move the CG beyond the wheels and the bike goes down.

Centerstand...genereally about the same side force and once the CG is outside the centerstand contact point, the bike will go over. Time might be a factor here. On the sidestand, you have to push for quite a while to get the bike up to vertical (actually, it's taking more force because you're having to raise the CG higher from the leaned over position). On the centerstand, the CG still has to be raised a bit also before it gets outside the contact point. The time of the pushing is probably shorter for the centerstand situation before it gets precarious.

Consider a Reynolds ride-off stand. The contact points for the centerstand are much wider and the forces to push on the bike have to raise the CG quite a distance before it gets to the point of being outside the contact point.

As initially suggested, this topic is beat up quite a bit...which approach is better. We each make our choices...if it doesn't work for you, you move on to something else.
 
Go out and mark the footprints on the pavement.

Centerstand feet and tire patch.

Both tire patches and sidestand.

Then stand back and decide which ought to be the most stable. Consider physics!

Sure, if you put it on either stand wrong - sidestand leaning to far or not far enough, or centerstand leaning it will be unstable.
 
Go out and mark the footprints on the pavement.

Centerstand feet and tire patch.

Both tire patches and sidestand.

Then stand back and decide which ought to be the most stable. Consider physics!

.

If I do what you say, Paul, sidestand and two tires would be most stable. The distance between each point of contact is much larger, thus leverage required to move it out of stable position is higher.
 
I take into consideration that this topic is pretty much a personal decision.

My 2 reasons for using the centerstand rather than the sidestand are these: 1) I still take seriously some of the old timer's suggestion that when leaning, the boxer engines will drain some of the oil into the left jug/piston. and 2) I don't want to do ANYTHING to have my Beemer look like a Harley!!!

As far as the physics go. I can see how the two different methods actually put the three contact points (sidestand: two tires and 1 stand, centerstand: two stand legs and 1 tire patch) with slightly different chances of tipping. With sidestand, two wheels could roll much more easily if ground is not level or if bike is bumped - especially from behind. With centerstand, bike could also be bumped forward and thus get stand to go "over center" but that would take a heck of a bump, but not when bike is not on level ground but facing downward. That is why I always use centerstand and point bike UP, Sidestand in this situation, whether pointing UP or DOWN, would allow 2 of the three contact points to roll. Wow - now that's scary!!

I really think that we need to have all the owners take a vote and then we can see which stand is the correct one to use! Before someone blasts me, I am joking!!!
 
I take into consideration that this topic is pretty much a personal decision.

My 2 reasons for using the centerstand rather than the sidestand are these: 1) I still take seriously some of the old timer's suggestion that when leaning, the boxer engines will drain some of the oil into the left jug/piston. and 2) I don't want to do ANYTHING to have my Beemer look like a Harley!!!

As far as the physics go. I can see how the two different methods actually put the three contact points (sidestand: two tires and 1 stand, centerstand: two stand legs and 1 tire patch) with slightly different chances of tipping. With sidestand, two wheels could roll much more easily if ground is not level or if bike is bumped - especially from behind. With centerstand, bike could also be bumped forward and thus get stand to go "over center" but that would take a heck of a bump, but not when bike is not on level ground but facing downward. That is why I always use centerstand and point bike UP, Sidestand in this situation, whether pointing UP or DOWN, would allow 2 of the three contact points to roll. Wow - now that's scary!!I really think that we need to have all the owners take a vote and then we can see which stand is the correct one to use! Before someone blasts me, I am joking!!!
noobie bikers learn in Motorcycling 101 (aka MSF's BRC) that you always park a bike in gear, never neutral. Eliminates that entire "roll off the stand" factor.
 
What's the chance of that?

I was on a vintage road race team back in the 90's. Road my '74 R90/6 down to Daytona Bike Week, then rode down to West Palm Beach to crew on the team at Moroso Race Track. After the races were over and the team was headed home, I was fixxen to head south to the Keys. I then noticed my sidestand spring gone and sidestand was flopping loose. Wired it up with a hanger out of the hotel room. Rode back out to the track and found the spring at our race pit, broken and useless. That wire hanger made a nice side stand hanger. On that same bike a couple years earlier, a socalled buddy of mine had been to the Missouri State rally. coming home we stopped and rode down to the Wilderness Rally Campground. Back up at the top of the hill, my buddy said my rear wheel waslooking out of wack. Got off checked it out and 30 spokes were broke. He said he had a headache and took off. I rode home 175 miles with 10 good spokes on my rear wheel. What's the chance of that? PS Never rode with that 'buddy' again.:violin
 
noobie bikers learn in Motorcycling 101 (aka MSF's BRC) that you always park a bike in gear, never neutral. Eliminates that entire "roll off the stand" factor.

BMW 101: Never park a BMW boxer on the sidestand unless only as a last resort. After 40 years, I have yet to see an old timer park the bike on the sidestand. And...have been told by many never to do that!
 
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BMW 101: Never park a BMW boxer on the sidestand unless only as a last resort. After 40 years, I have yet to see an old timer park the bike on the sidestand. And...have been told by many never to do that!

So ... this question is from a "newbie", not to riding but new to BMWs: is that old adage true? I agree that BMW oldtimers rarely if ever park on the sidestand, but is it really true that they leak oil into the lower (left side) cylinder head? Or is it only lore? Perhaps used to be true, but no longer?
 
but is it really true that they leak oil into the lower (left side) cylinder head? Or is it only lore? Perhaps used to be true, but no longer?

I think it's pretty clear they can do this. Oil is splashing around up to the point of shutting off the bike. If the bike is immediately put on the sidestand, that spashed oil on the cylinder walls will not begin to trickle and pool up against the underside of the rings. That oil can then seep past the rings into the combustion chamber. If the unlikely situation where the ring gaps have lined up, the oil will flow quite easily past the rings.
 
So ... this question is from a "newbie", not to riding but new to BMWs: is that old adage true? I agree that BMW oldtimers rarely if ever park on the sidestand, but is it really true that they leak oil into the lower (left side) cylinder head? Or is it only lore? Perhaps used to be true, but no longer?

I am not sure to whom you are referring as being a "newbie." However, i can assure you that I am not, either to motorcycling or to BMW's. I have owned and completely rebuilt a R50/2 and a R90/6. I now own a '78 R100/7. I am not a newbie.

You folks slay me with your not-very-well-thought-out assumptions. And...your insistence on just simply stating your opinions but you have to do so by attacking the others who disagree with you or who cite information that you don't like.

The original attacker could have simply stated his view like this: "The way to avoid the wheels rolling while using the sidestand would be to put the bike in gear." Period!

Why was the attack necessary? And you ignorantly followed suit.

That says something about both of you.

As pertaining to your question. I am pretty positive that all of the airheads and vintages prior to 1980 DID, indeed, let oil drain down into the left combustion chamber - passing by the piston and rings (if the gaps happened to be aligned at the time) and also up & down through the pushrod tubes. I will have to let others answer this as I am sure there is someone who has tested this. I personally DO know, that when the oil drains back down into the pan, it will be affected by the leaning of the bike.

As to the later boxers, I have no knowledge either from others or from experience.

Finally, don't make fun of those "old timers" as many of them have a plethora of BMW's and have been actively owning them for dozens of years. i really respect (not necessarily always agree) their knowledge and opinions.
 
In the shop, most of "my" bikes are typically on the centerstand to make more room...Helen's are typically on the sidestand,her K12S doesn't have one anyways...she's in Voni's camp on why:wave Watching her take a RT off the centerstand was a treat...for me.

Helen's 1150 R at 104K seems to fog the mosquitoes at start-up if not ridden for a few days...seems older K's had the smoke issue,right Paul? I am new to Airheads ,but haven't had a smoker by parking on sidestand for prolonged periods...yet.

Have seen many bikes blow over...some in a not-so pretty line with a big gust:banghead from old habits. Our's were still standing on their 3- point perch...just sayin'.
What the heck is that sidestand for if you don't use it?:brow Just remember to put that bad boy up on the Airheads when riding off...exciting if you forget!
 
Balderdash! Voni has had several Airheads, several K75s and several Oilheads. In her million plus miles she has parked on the center stand exactly zero times. She has actually put her bike on the centerstand a couple of times just to see if she could, or to repair a tire. But parked - never!

Other than in the shop, I can only recall parking my bikes on the centerstand a handful of times myself.

I think the old-timers who started this legend probably had engines with bad rings and thought the smoke from a few drops of oil was somehow a sign of their impending demise. Or they wanted style points based on those nice illustrations in the old Owners Manuals which showed a stylish dismount, holding the bike with one thumb and forefinger, while putting the bike on the centerstand, all dressed in their (now) vintage one-piece German leathers. The truth is that in those days - can you say /5 - the sidestands were sufficiently self-retractingly crappy that the centerstand might have made sense.

The real answer is - do whatever you want. There are some circumstances where one or the other absolutely makes the most sense: centerstand to change a tire and sidestand with a decent foot if in the grass. In the privacy of your own garage it usually fails to matter, and for maximum style points all lined up and backed in at the curb at the Dairy Queen do what your buddies do if you must.
 
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