after 10 yrs....disappointment

Technological Paranoia

Welcome to the 21st Century.

What we have here is a little failure to communicate and some good old fashion technological paranoia. For starters, we have a mechanic who fell asleep during one of the technical update training classes. I would suggest taking your bike to a dealership that has a mechanic that lives in the 21st century. It can't be fixed without technical know how and the proper instruments.

It canÔÇÖt be fixed it on the road, but the same thing could happen to most cars.

In short, people fear what they don't understand.

Easy

Hey now,

A few comments.

First, every new BMW I have purchased came with three keys, two regular keys and one wallet sized spare. Where are your spare keys? That would tell you right off the bat if it was the key or the sensor.

When the oilheads were introduced airhead riders panned (and some still do) them as over complicated, etc. My airhead friends would go on and on about how much better it is to have a bike one could take apart and put back together with a leatherman.

One time I even got this sermon from a guy while we were parked at a rest area to fix a broken airhead.

I don't think he quite understood the irony of the moment.

Two Iron Butt Rallies, over 100k bopping around all on multiple "fool" injected bikes and only once was I stuck by the side of the road and that was after a deep woods fall down on my GS where I knocked the TPS all out of whack. I was able to make field adjustments and get me and my bike out of the woods and two days later in the driving rain I got stranded while on my way to the dealer.

Having said this there really is no excuse for a bike going all wonky and I really hope your dealer does you right.

KBasa said:

No fuses, for starters. You're never going to melt a portion of your wiring harness before the fuse pops. The Canbus can read that there's too much resistance on the circuit and shut it down. If you've ever dealt with a nicked harness, you know how much of a hassle it can cause.

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Bear with me. I don't own a Hexhead.

So what you are saying is that Hexheads don't have a single fuse or fuse box on the motorcycle?

If the Canbus can shut down a circuit, then there is a bit of electronics involved...certainly more than a simple fuse set-up.

Nicked harnesses. Ahhh, now you know the reason for a once or twice a year thorough motorcycle wash where I remove the gas tank, seat, side covers, etc. It gives me the chance to really clean and inspect everything, especially the stuff that is normally out of sight.

KBasa said:

Functionally, you can transmit multiple signals through one wire, which makes the harness lighter and easier to repair if there is a problem.

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Signals to what? Certainly not to something as simple as a left and right turn signal. If that is the case with one wire feeding them, then you need an addressable module next to each turn signal. If that is the case, talk about unnecessary complexity...to turn on a simple light.

How much lighter does it make the harness? Are we decreasing the size (number of wires) by over 50%? I can see that being an issue in a B777 or an F16, but on a motorcycle?

Easier to repair? I take it you mean diagnose? Nothing could be simpler than power at one end of a wire and a load at the other. Maybe techs have lost their diagnostic skills...actually, very few had that skill to start with so I have seen.

KBasa said:

If the CanBus system sticks around, look for diagnosis tools to start to appear as software tools for your laptop.

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Don't worry, Dave. The marketing people are good at changing things when sales of the last boom tappers off. They're good at producing a need that nobody has asked for and what is a gimmick in most cases. Look at where DVDs are going. Now Blu Ray. Do they really think I'm going to buy all those movies again? I don't have a single DVD that I already had on VHS.

Having never blown a fuse since I bought my first BMW in 1991, how does this technology help me? But you know the saying, "BS baffles brains" and the MFGs are certainly good at impressing the masses.

JimVonBaden1 said:

Same way you fix your 1150 BMW with no computer!

If you insist on being a Luddite, that's fine with me, but don't go spreading the rumor that the can bus is some kind of motorcycle voodoo that is unfixable in the normal manner. Take the time to learn how to work with it.

With the exception of the immobilizer system nothing on the bike will leave you any more stranded than on any oilhead.

Jim

In 5 years those who now get the current 1200 series will be lamenting the newest innovations, just like the airhead crowd did/does the oilheads.

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I am not lowering myself to your level by namecalling but you go right ahead and get the latest tech that BMW deems necessary to push on its clients. I know the technology and it works well in cars but we are talking motorcycles, not 5 & 7 series BMW's. (who still have issues)
Maybe it's me, but for now I'll let folks like you beta test the whole thing until it's foolproof. As far as rumor go, there aren't any as facts speak for themselves.

Try fixing your TV, cell phone or even your toaster oven! I work on commercial boats and the new engines from Cat. have four computers on the motor and two more in the pilot house. Each motor! Are they harder to work on? Not at all. They're still an internal combustion motor. Are the electronics a mystery to most? You bet. But they burn less fuel, make more power and since they run whithin the ideal design conditions are much, much more reliable. And a tech with the right equipment and training can fix them 100 times faster than the old systems.
If you want ABS and traction control and electronic suspension and trip computers and clocks that actually tell time you just have to take the risk (actually a very, very tiny one at worst) with the new electronics. Anyone remember points? How about magnetos? Or 6 volt charging (if you can really call 'em that) systems. I wouldn't go back for anything. Of course I still reset my trip odo at every fill up. Old habits do die hard!

kitze2 said:

Anyone remember points? How about magnetos? Or 6 volt charging (if you can really call 'em that) systems. I wouldn't go back for anything. Of course I still reset my trip odo at every fill up. Old habits do die hard!

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I beg your pardon! I not only remeber those things, I have four bikes in the garage that have them. Magnetos are very reliable devices, and don't depend on the rest of the charging system.

And what's the problem with a 6V generator? If you replace the brushes every 5k miles or so, it works great. And who could ask for more than a 35watt incandescent headlight?

Points are a bit fiddly, but unless they slip, they just run and run. My R60/2 only calls for checking the points every 3k miles, and except when the rubbing block came off, I've never had to check them sooner.

I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at.

I always reset the trip odometer with each gas fill on my '83 R80RT, too...or I use to. It's busted, now, and it a isn't "side of the road" fix.

My little FL60 Freightliner RV puller has to be hooked to a computer diagnostic interface with...someplace back east....so the mechanics can do much of anything, and it does have a couple minor "issues." It does, though, get nearly as good of mileage as many of the much smaller older pickups, and it shifts all by itself, and much better than I probably could do with a clutch.

I just rebuilt a little 2 cycliner '56 JD crawler; simplicity to the max. But when I start pushing dirt, I jealously ponder the new machines. They push dirt a lot more easily.

My first auto was a $60 Model A Ford. A really fun little car that needed constant tinkering. Anyone remember how long the old muscle car engines would last without a rebuild? Somewhere around 80,000 miles, they started doing really bad things. Today, twice or three times that is not unusual.

Five thousand mile tires, and one year 6 volt batteries, anyone? Not me.

Nope, they really don't make them like they use to.

Gary

It seems that whole crux of the biscuit comes down to this:

You either

a) Want a system with average reliability and relatively low incidence of catastrophic failure that's easily diagnosable and repairable with easy-to-find parts;

or,

b) You want a system with high reliability, but that cannot be easily diagnosed or fixed without special tools or instruments (we could debate the incidence of catastrophic failure here. Seems to me that anything that causes the bike to Not Move(tm) is a catastrophic failure, i.e., wonky key transmitter with secret codes, mysterious ABS failure codes, etc.).

These are deeply personal choices. Part of owning a bike for me is the feeling that I have some control over technology. If the bike decides to Not Move, I want to feel somewhat competent in determining the cause. This doesn't apply to every aspect of my life. If the Ford doesn't start, it's probably getting towed, because I'm not going to break out the tools and troubleshoot while my family waits in the heat or cold.

However, I enjoy tinkering with the bike. If I screw something up, it might take me a few days to figure out at my leisure, but I'm not without other wheels.

I'm not saying that the current crop of BMW bike technology prevents you from doing any troubleshooting at all, but it does make it harder for your average person to make any assumptions about what might be wrong. Air, spark, and fuel become tangential.

This could explain the Ural thing, maybe, but I don't want to go there. Yet.

DarrylRi said:

I beg your pardon! I not only remeber those things, I have four bikes in the garage that have them. Magnetos are very reliable devices, and don't depend on the rest of the charging system.

And what's the problem with a 6V generator? If you replace the brushes every 5k miles or so, it works great. And who could ask for more than a 35watt incandescent headlight?

Points are a bit fiddly, but unless they slip, they just run and run. My R60/2 only calls for checking the points every 3k miles, and except when the rubbing block came off, I've never had to check them sooner.

I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at.

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When's your hexhead showing up, Darryl?

KBasa said:

When's your hexhead showing up, Darryl?

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Touche!!


Easy

Troutluck said:

It seems that whole crux of the biscuit comes down to this:

You either

a) Want a system with average reliability and relatively low incidence of catastrophic failure that's easily diagnosable and repairable with easy-to-find parts;

or,

b) You want a system with high reliability, but that cannot be easily diagnosed or fixed without special tools or instruments (we could debate the incidence of catastrophic failure here. Seems to me that anything that causes the bike to Not Move(tm) is a catastrophic failure, i.e., wonky key transmitter with secret codes, mysterious ABS failure codes, etc.).

These are deeply personal choices. Part of owning a bike for me is the feeling that I have some control over technology. If the bike decides to Not Move, I want to feel somewhat competent in determining the cause. This doesn't apply to every aspect of my life. If the Ford doesn't start, it's probably getting towed, because I'm not going to break out the tools and troubleshoot while my family waits in the heat or cold.

However, I enjoy tinkering with the bike. If I screw something up, it might take me a few days to figure out at my leisure, but I'm not without other wheels.

I'm not saying that the current crop of BMW bike technology prevents you from doing any troubleshooting at all, but it does make it harder for your average person to make any assumptions about what might be wrong. Air, spark, and fuel become tangential.

This could explain the Ural thing, maybe, but I don't want to go there. Yet.

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Well put.

With a couple hexheads in the house, I can do all the basic maintenance I want, but if there's diagnostics to be done, I'm going to need to buy the right tool and learn how to use it.

Similar to working on my airhead, just different enough to make some folks uncomfortable as they try to sort new skills.

Vive le difference!

What BMW calls canbus has been around for over ten years in the auto industry, Ducati,Triumph and most of the Asian bikes are also going that way.

HexST said:

What BMW calls canbus has been around for over ten years in the auto industry, Ducati,Triumph and most of the Asian bikes are also going that way.

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What BMW calls fuel injection has been around for over ten years in the auto industry. Ducati, Triumph and most of the Asian bikes are also going that way. However NONE of the other manufacturers REQUIRE you to take it to an official licensed dealer to get it serviced. Everyone EXCEPT BMW is "open source." When a BMW component dies, if you are far from a dealer, yer fooked. Other than swapping out components with known-good examples, you can't even troubleshoot without the Official BMW MoDuhTec machine (only available on LEASE from korporate BMW). Double your fun as BMW closes dealerships, putting owners further and further from the nearest dealer all the time.

KBasa said:

Wow. How do you connect to the bike?

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Connects right to the diagnostic port under the seat on my R12GS Adv. There are 2 version one Bluetooth & USB and one just USB.

there is a good write up here: http://www.r1200gs.info/misc/GS-911.html

Dave

flash412 said:

When a BMW component dies, if you are far from a dealer, yer fooked. Other than swapping out components with known-good examples, you can't even troubleshoot without the Official BMW MoDuhTec machine (only available on LEASE from korporate BMW). Double your fun as BMW closes dealerships, putting owners further and further from the nearest dealer all the time.

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As posted above you can get a GS911 for $200 and check for fault codes.

Works great , I played around with mine by creating faults (unpluging stuff).

Not everything is going to throw a fault code though - such as a failed drive spline

Dave

Can you provide a link for the GS-911??

riderR1150GSAdv said:

I am not lowering myself to your level by namecalling but you go right ahead and get the latest tech that BMW deems necessary to push on its clients. I know the technology and it works well in cars but we are talking motorcycles, not 5 & 7 series BMW's. (who still have issues)
Maybe it's me, but for now I'll let folks like you beta test the whole thing until it's foolproof. As far as rumor go, there aren't any as facts speak for themselves.

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Talk about thin skinned! I apologize if you think I was calling YOU a nasty name.

If you insist on being a Luddite, that's fine with me, but don't go spreading the rumor that the can bus is some kind of motorcycle voodoo that is unfixable in the normal manner. Take the time to learn how to work with it.

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Luddite: An individual who is against technological change.

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Obviously I was too harsh!



Many of you seem to think BMW is trying to pull one over on you or something.

Paranoia runs rampant when ignorance reigns. (NOT directed at anyone specifically)

The system is no more difficult to work on that any other, and as said by others, the other motorcycle manufacturers are also going canbus, because it works, and it works well.

Canbus is NOT a one wire system, it is all about less wires and the flexibility to make the systems work more efficiently. But no amount of me saying so will change the minds of those who are against it.

Just remember what has already been said, in a few years everyone will be lamenting the simplicity of the 2005 models in light of the complexity of the 2015 models.

Once again, I am sorry if I offended anyone by disagreeing with them. It was my intention to illuminate, not disassociate.

Jim

PS How old does technology have to be to not be considered "Beta"? 20 years long enough, longer?

dronning said:

Connects right to the diagnostic port under the seat on my R12GS Adv. There are 2 version one Bluetooth & USB and one just USB.

there is a good write up here: http://www.r1200gs.info/misc/GS-911.html

Dave

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The link is right there.

Anyhow, I have used the GS-911, and it is a cool unit, and very useful. However, it really isn't necessary for working on your own bike 95% of the time, and certainly NO dealer "REQUIRES" the bike be brought in for regular service. That would be illegal.

Here are a couple shots of the GS-911 in use.









It showed a couple faults that I caused myself. One from a low battery, one from a defective aftermarket BRAKE light, and one from my Stiebel Horn.

Jim

dronning said:

As posted above you can get a GS911 for $200 and check for fault codes. Works great, I played around with mine by creating faults (unpluging stuff).

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DAYUM! Does the fact you bought one with your credit card immediately void your motorcycle's warranty (before you even plug it into your bike)?

OK, I'll bite. What does CANBUS stand for?

I'm assuming it's something akin to the new mutil-plex wiring systems being used in semis?? If anything is late being draged into the new world, it's big trucks, and they have had it for a few years, now.

Gary