FD Failure _Dealer Explaination

deilenberger said:

There are a few problems with your hypothesis - although in the absence of facts - it's probably as good as any..

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Point taken, absence of facts.

- The drives which were repaired with new bearings were not hexhead drives. So far - in every case I've heard of - BMW replaces the new style drive as a unit. If there is a problem with shimming variances - it's coming right from the factory (which is likely a subcontractor - Getrag or ZF.) I think it's important to note that the design of the hexhead/new-K drives is really completely different from the older oilhead/K drives. AFAIK - not a single part is shared between them, including bearings, seals, casing, etc.

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I based that bit on posts here, that owners had had repairs made with the same shims used.

- The story I heard - which was from a source that claimed they heard it from BMW - but I can't be certain it's entirely accurate - is the reason the oil is being changed at 600 miles is it may have some contamination left from the original machining process. I can't think of any reason to use any sort of break-in oil on a gearbox that has gears and bearings - "break-in" of either of these implies wear - and that's exactly what isn't needed or wanted.

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Simply passing on what the dealer told me yesterday. I'm no engineer, but a "break-in" oil makes sense to me. Something to "bed in" new parts, then get rid of the swarf. Triumph uses a dino, no friction modifier/surfacant additives added, "break in" oil in their engines for the first 600 miles. Helps in seating rings and such. I can see it helping to "finish" (polish) gear surfaces and bearings and get rid of machine tool marks but, once again, I'm no engineer.

dlearl476 said:

Point taken, absence of facts.



I based that bit on posts here, that owners had had repairs made with the same shims used.

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I can't recall that being the case on any reported hexhead failures.. but it was quite common on the older oilhead design.

Simply passing on what the dealer told me yesterday. I'm no engineer, but a "break-in" oil makes sense to me. Something to "bed in" new parts, then get rid of the swarf. Triumph uses a dino, no friction modifier/surfacant additives added, "break in" oil in their engines for the first 600 miles. Helps in seating rings and such. I can see it helping to "finish" (polish) gear surfaces and bearings and get rid of machine tool marks but, once again, I'm no engineer.

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As mentioned - you aren't an engineer (and think of that as a blessing..) Older engine manufacturing did use somewhat variable clearances - and part of breaking in an engine was to allow the parts to wear against each other to fit. I'm guessing that's what Triumph uses. BMW hasn't used a break-in oil on anything I know of in about 15 years or more. They machine the parts to tolerances they are expected to keep for the life of the bike. The only exception is the rings/cylinder interface. This still requires some 'bedding' in of the parts to achieve an effective seal.

Gear drives are considerably different from engines - and the gear mating surfaces are a hardened surface, precisely machined to mate correctly. Wear or polishing of the surface actually is wear - and is undesirable AFAIK.

One point - I think most dealers are as much in the dark on this as we are - but they usually feel they have to project some sort of expert image, so I take what a dealer says with a somewhat critical eye unless they are showing me something BMW sent to them. I've been told some amazingly wrong things by dealers and dealer mechanics through the years.. Not that they mean wrong - but they feel they have to say something.. after all - they're the experts.

Best,

Saving The Planet Through Better Bearings

http://www.designnews.com/blog/320000232/post/1700014370.html?nid=2333&rid=1512736146


Want to help save the environment? [How about your BMW?] Sure you do. And one way you can help, as an engineer/ [rider], is to take a hard look at the energy-efficiency implications of the motion components you specify.

That’s the message that came out during an SKF media event held yesterday in Philadelphia. The company later this year will start production on two new families of energy-efficient bearings that promise to reduce friction losses by up to 30 percent compared to conventional bearings of the same size, type and service life. The new bearings will initially be available in deep groove ball bearing and tapered roller bearing styles.

The reduced friction losses can add up to big gains in overall energy efficiency in many applications. Tom Johnstone, SKF Group’s president and CEO, noted that a typical windmill would save about 2,600 kilowatt-hours yearly through the replacement of a single tapered roller bearing with one of the new energy-efficient models. Replacing all the windmill’s bearings with energy efficient models would save about 20,000 kilowatt-hours per year, he estimates.

Better ball bearings could have a similarly large impact. Replacing all the ball bearings used in Europe’s and North America’s electric motors [and BMWs] with energy efficient bearings would roughly offset the energy used by 3 million Swedish households in a month, Johnstone says.

SKF achieved the efficiency gains by optimizing aspects of its existing ball and tapered roller bearing designs. “We worked hard on the internal geometry,” Johnstone says. The company also adopted new polymer cages and low friction greases for the new bearings.

The energy-efficient models will at first be available in medium and large sizes for energy-intensive transmissions, electric motors, pumps, compressors, fans, conveyors and [BMWs]. Eventually, SKF plans to extend its energy efficient technology to additional sizes and bearing families.

So can better bearings really save the planet? Obviously not by themselves. But the new products do exemplify SKF’s broad approach to sustainability, which has earned the company spots on the Dow Jones Sustainability and FTSE4Good indexes for the past six years. The company already has programs that focus on the usual sustainability suspects–such as the CO2 emissions, materials, chemicals and energy consumption associated with its own production processes.

But SKF’s Beyond Zero sustainability program also accounts for the environmental impact of its products after they’ve been installed in customer applications. “We use energy at SKF. We emit CO2. So we develop products whose cumulative effect for customers is greater than what SKF itself uses,” Johnstone explains.


[Maybe someone should give these guys a call...]

dlearl476 said:

In absence of any real facts:

:

The FDs come with a break-in oil that HAS to be changed at the 600 mile service. Due to some poor communications and misunderstanding, this wasn't done on a lot of bikes and caused failures. Sounds reasonable.



Lastly, the seals. If, as Rob states, the proceedure for changing the fluid is to remove the FD, drain, refill, and re-seal the drive, that makes a lot of room for error, IMO. If this thing is sealed, the exact quantity and type of lubrication would be critical. Early on there was talk of "if it's thicker, it must be better" mentality causing folks to use 80W/140 gear lube when 89W/90 was spec-ed. I would think this would be catastophic given the app. If the lube cant flow into the balls, it's gonna overheat, which is gonna mean "someting's gotta give". Given that there no longer a vent on these drives, that "something" is gonna be the seal, IMO.

So here's my WAG: All the above. I'd surmise some failed from one cause or the other. Possibly even more failed from two, and combine all three and there's no way your drive is gonna last long at all. But that's just my guess. The flip side of the coin is get all three right and your FD will last forever.

IMO, if there is a real design flaw in this system, it is doing away with the drain and vent, making temperature and pressure variations possibly lethal which, in turn, mandates absolute perfection in the replacing of the seal, a job which now has to be done every time the fluid is changed.

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The only problem I have with this, is the fact that Rob's bike was prepared by MAX BMW. I would certainly hope that even a lesser known dealer would know the proper service procedures. I've neve been in their shop but, they are highly thought of, at least on the MOA Forum. Just my 2 cents.

dlearl476 said:

Point taken, absence of facts.
Simply passing on what the dealer told me yesterday. I'm no engineer, but a "break-in" oil makes sense to me. Something to "bed in" new parts, then get rid of the swarf. Triumph uses a dino, no friction modifier/surfacant additives added, "break in" oil in their engines for the first 600 miles. Helps in seating rings and such. I can see it helping to "finish" (polish) gear surfaces and bearings and get rid of machine tool marks but, once again, I'm no engineer.

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If this refers to the new drives and the subsequent bulletin advising the dealers to change the final drive fluid starting with the '07 bikes, there was no mention of "break in oil". The issue was that some manufacturing substance could bind with the initial fill of oil and it was recommended that the drive oil be changed at the run in (600 miles) service. Subsequent oil changes like at 12K miles would not be beneficial. Earlier bikes were not mentioned. There still is no FD oil change specified in any of the maintenance schedules for any service...600 or other. The drives came new with Castrol SAF-XO which is an extended drain synthetic 75W90 gear oil. It is not readily available in the States, so dealers are to use BMW's, made by Spectrol, long drain interval 75W90 gear oil.
That are all the facts there are at this time. In addition to acting on these facts, I personally would complete one oil change of any other new drive on previous year bikes I had regardless of mileage and put the BMW long drain synth or equivalent synth 75W90 gear oil in them and go for a ride.

2BikeMike said:

The only problem I have with this, is the fact that Rob's bike was prepared by MAX BMW. I would certainly hope that even a lesser known dealer would know the proper service procedures. I've neve been in their shop but, they are highly thought of, at least on the MOA Forum. Just my 2 cents.

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That's kind of the point I was trying to make. I've had one of the best Triumph dealers in the country screw up a 6K service. Stuff happens. But in my hypothetical pondering, IF (and it's a big if) a dealership like Max could get the seal wrong, what hope is there the other 80 percentile techs won't?

cjack said:

If this refers to the new drives and the subsequent bulletin advising the dealers to change the final drive fluid starting with the '07 bikes, there was no mention of "break in oil". The issue was that some manufacturing substance could bind with the initial fill of oil and it was recommended that the drive oil be changed at the run in (600 miles) service.

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Who knows, I'm just relating what the dealer said. I wonder if some sort of assembly lube/paste is used and that's what they want out of the mix. "Break-in Lube" could easily refer to either "the lube that's in there during break-in" as "a special lube to AID in break-in".

I personally would complete one oil change of any other new drive on previous year bikes I had regardless of mileage and put the BMW long drain synth or equivalent synth 75W90 gear oil in them and go for a ride.

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To each his own. I think I'm going to go out to the garage and admire the beauty and simplicity of my $125 Motion Pro chain tool.

FD flush at 600 mile service

I have just purchased a 2007 Rt and went for the 600 mile service where the dealer flushed and replaced the FD oil. Seemed that they were doing this as a standard (new) procedure from BMW.

The reason my final drive went out isn't because I dragged a trailer with me, and/or over loaded the bike. Which I did neither. Mine went out at 36,000 miles because wonderful BMW didn't put enough grease in the darn bearings. So after 36,000 miles all the grease went bye bye... And also because of wonderful Gina's in Iowa City. They didn't take very good care of my bike in its first 24,000 miles. Before it was mine.

But hey, is it BMW's fault that they didn't put enough grease in the final drive.... nope, its MINE! Because I rode it wrong... ?!?!?

*sigh*

YELLOW_S said:

The reason my final drive went out isn't because I dragged a trailer with me, and/or over loaded the bike. Which I did neither. Mine went out at 36,000 miles because wonderful BMW didn't put enough grease in the darn bearings. So after 36,000 miles all the grease went bye bye... And also because of wonderful Gina's in Iowa City. They didn't take very good care of my bike in its first 24,000 miles. Before it was mine.

But hey, is it BMW's fault that they didn't put enough grease in the final drive.... nope, its MINE! Because I rode it wrong... ?!?!?

*sigh*

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"grease in the darn bearings"

elaborate

dlearl476 said:

That's kind of the point I was trying to make. I've had one of the best Triumph dealers in the country screw up a 6K service. Stuff happens. But in my hypothetical pondering, IF (and it's a big if) a dealership like Max could get the seal wrong, what hope is there the other 80 percentile techs won't?

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Again - I think you're confusing the seal that fails (the outside shaft seal) with the ones that are replaced at the oil service (the "drain plug" seal - O ring and the ABS sensor O ring seal.) Either of the drain/o-ring seals leaking would be quite obvious. One would dribble down the back end of the rear-drive (and it wouldn't be more than a tiny dribble with no seal at all) - the other would oil the rear brakes.

I can assure you - the problem wasn't a badly done seal by a dealer. It may have been a badly done seal by BMW's subcontractor for the rear drives..

Who knows, I'm just relating what the dealer said. I wonder if some sort of assembly lube/paste is used and that's what they want out of the mix. "Break-in Lube" could easily refer to either "the lube that's in there during break-in" as "a special lube to AID in break-in".

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If that's what the dealer said (and I don't doubt it).. well, it's just not accurate (as kind a way as I can think of to state it..)

To each his own. I think I'm going to go out to the garage and admire the beauty and simplicity of my $125 Motion Pro chain tool.

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Is it true that if you shove whole bananas (with peels) into the gears, it will make it much smoother and quieter?

Fred
'07 R1200R

FredRydr said:

Is it true that if you shove whole bananas (with peels) into the gears, it will make it much smoother and quieter?

Fred
'07 R1200R

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shhhshhh! Don't let out the secret!

YELLOW_S said:

The reason my final drive went out isn't because I dragged a trailer with me, and/or over loaded the bike. Which I did neither. Mine went out at 36,000 miles because wonderful BMW didn't put enough grease in the darn bearings. So after 36,000 miles all the grease went bye bye... And also because of wonderful Gina's in Iowa City. They didn't take very good care of my bike in its first 24,000 miles. Before it was mine.

But hey, is it BMW's fault that they didn't put enough grease in the final drive.... nope, its MINE! Because I rode it wrong... ?!?!?

*sigh*

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You've left out a lot of info here. How did you ride it wrong? Inquiring minds want to know.

With the various final drive threads all over the forum, it took me a while to decide which I should post in. This one is definitely it. I am happy to hear some of the comments/theories about lubricant loss, made by Don, Paul, and Jack, among others. I've got a final drive story that might lend a data point...

My round-trip to the Int'l Rally this past July tallied 3200 miles in 7 days. Not exactly IBR stuff but we did some long-ish days with some inclement weather and some dirt roads. Arriving home, I noticed a very slight haze of lubricant on the lower right side of the rear drive, coming from the shaft seal (under the black plastic thing on the right-hand side). The quantity was almost trivial - a haze which had attracted some dust, maybe a couple square inches in size. Didn't even look wet. Close examination of the small gap around the perimeter of the "black plastic thing" showed a bit of wetness. Uh-oh.

I pulled the rear brake caliper and did the checks for play at 12-6 o'clock and 3-9 o'clock, plus tactile checks of the general smoothness. There was a tiny discernable play at 12-6, nothing at all at 3-9, and it spun very smoothly. Then I removed the rear wheel and re-checked smoothness - excellent.

I decided not to lose sleepover it, and keep riding to see what happened. I did a short 20-mile ride locally, low-speed and low-stress, and observed no change. Then I did a 55-mile round-trip commute to work, and upon arriving home, the right sidewall of my rear tire was substantially streaked with oil.

In short, it went from the barest hint of a leaky seal, to what I'd call a substantial leak, in 55 miles. I can't quantify how much lube I lost, but if each streak on the rear tire was a drop of oil, then we're talking 30 or 40 drops. (What percentage of .230 liters is that?)

My theory: that seal can fail quickly. In an IBR situation, with large fuel capacities and relatively long distances between opportunities to check over the bike (not that I would expect an IB rider to scrutinize his FD at every gas stop, anyway) the seal can go from good to very bad, and the quantity of lube that can come out is probably enough to cause bearing failure from lack of lube.

My GS was repaired by Max BMW under warranty, but the only action taken was to replace the seal (which can be done externally, with almost no disassembly required). They're dropping it off this afternoon, so I am still looking forward to the next chapter of this saga...

Steve - thanks.. and an excellent data point.

What you said happened to you is what I suspect happened to the IB riders - and as you hypothesized - they may not have noticed the leak, or if they did - it was after enough fluid loss to cause bearing damage.

I do keep an eye on that side of the rear drive - it's easy enough to eyeball it when I do my weekly tire pressure check.

deilenberger said:

Snippage..The thought of insufficient lube - or perhaps contaminated fluid - is an interesting one. The one drive in our local club that failed - had it's fluid changed about 4,000 miles before the failure occurred...

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Ah-HA, another data point from me: my GS had 14,500 miles on it when the FD seal failed. And I had the lube in the FD replaced... 4000 miles earlier. The occasion for the FD lube change was while the bike was torn down for another warranty service, this one for a failure of the transmission input shaft seal. That was done by our local shop (Razee in N. Kingstown, RI). It was this bike's first and only FD lube change... being an '05, it was far beyond 600 miles by the time BMW announced the FD lube change at the break-in service.

Now... I can't say for sure exactly what type of lube Razee put in at 10,500. I trusted them, and in fact instructed them, to put in whatever BMW Korporate was recommending at the moment. I wonder if we are possibly looking at some kind of material incompatibility between replacement fluid and seal?

soffiler said:

Ah-HA, another data point from me: my GS had 14,500 miles on it when the FD seal failed. And I had the lube in the FD replaced... 4000 miles earlier. The occasion for the FD lube change was while the bike was torn down for another warranty service, this one for a failure of the transmission input shaft seal. That was done by our local shop (Razee in N. Kingstown, RI). It was this bike's first and only FD lube change... being an '05, it was far beyond 600 miles by the time BMW announced the FD lube change at the break-in service.

Now... I can't say for sure exactly what type of lube Razee put in at 10,500. I trusted them, and in fact instructed them, to put in whatever BMW Korporate was recommending at the moment. I wonder if we are possibly looking at some kind of material incompatibility between replacement fluid and seal?

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No. I don't think that's it. There were a number of '05 bikes that leaked out of the seal without being changed from the initial fill.

2BikeMike said:

You've left out a lot of info here. How did you ride it wrong? Inquiring minds want to know.

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I don't know... My dads final drive went out on his BMW R1150RT at 26,000 miles. And its wasn't BMW's fault it was his... Thats what BMW said... I guess BMW motorcycles just can't take everday use... make you wonder where BMW is going to be in 15-20 years.

So far I have 35,000 miles on BMW motorcycles. I'm the next generation of BMW, being 17 year old. Depending on what BMW comes out with in 5 years, and how reliable it is, I might stay with BMW, but right now. It isn't looking good. I love the bike, and the feel of the Boxer engine. But BMW has problems and they will not admit it, so they just keep building things that have glitches in them and don't give a damn. The only real thing BMW has going for them is the people who buy them, they are a great crowd, but there motorcycles aint so great.

BubbaZanetti said:

"grease in the darn bearings"

elaborate

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Its simple, BMW didn't do a proper greasing job when they build my final drive. So after 36,000 miles of riding all the grease disappeared.

YELLOW_S said:

Its simply, BMW didn't do a proper greasing job when they build my final drive. So after 36,000 miles of riding all the grease disappeared.

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This doesn't make any sense.

cjack said:

This doesn't make any sense.

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If the bearings are sealed, they are pre greased and not user serviceable. In that case loss of grease failures are not BMW's responsibility unless they were used in in an application that it is not suited for, installed incorrectly or outside of the specs of the bearing.