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2013 R1200RT....motor oil question...

So, all synthetics are the same, right?

No, SAF-XO is specially designed for long change intervals, even "lifetime" fill. Show me another that is.

BMW uses it in its cars too, this one for non-limited-slip diffs, another for LSDs. They're specially developed for BMW. Again, lifetime fill applications. It is NOT the same formula as typical PepBoys stuff.

The R1200 service DVD calls for it specifically whereas for other bikes, e.g. oilheads, the manual will simply specify 90 wt or the like.


Is this the same "lifetime" fill our R1200RTs first appeared with? Or was that a different lifetime lube that's been super-ceded?
 
Apparently the specially developed oil must be good for British iron also.. Land Rover uses it in their differentials (that was THE source in the USA before BMW started selling it.) I believe the Brits were using it first.

Probably started during timeframe BMW owned Land Rover.
 
Don,
I suspect you'll do fine with the 10W-60 you're using but I'd add a bit to your thinking.

Do you have data on the various ball pressure tests for metal scoring? Knowing where the boundary is for these are tough but I once crossed it when deliberately using some lighter (at the low end- I think it was a 0W-40 to gain hp in a rotary race motor. Problem was the motor end plates ended up looking like I'd gouged them out with a chisel. The motor ran like stink but eventually lost so much compression it wouldn't start- but still made massive power when it could be made to start..Not sure what parts this might equate to in a boxer motor...

Too bad Spectro has such lousy marketing- could just buy the BMW equivalent stuff through other sources.

SAF-XO currently sold by BMW dealers is cheap these days - about half of what is used to be. BM NA for years sold Spectro made FD lubes, of course..
 
Don,
I suspect you'll do fine with the 10W-60 you're using but I'd add a bit to your thinking.

Do you have data on the various ball pressure tests for metal scoring? Knowing where the boundary is for these are tough but I once crossed it when deliberately using some lighter (at the low end- I think it was a 0W-40 to gain hp in a rotary race motor. Problem was the motor end plates ended up looking like I'd gouged them out with a chisel. The motor ran like stink but eventually lost so much compression it wouldn't start- but still made massive power when it could be made to start..Not sure what parts this might equate to in a boxer motor...
Nope.. but scoring will leave trace elements in the oil that will be spotted in the Blackstone tests. Never been an issue, the metal contaminates (wear basically) has been a non-issue on the tests I had done with the oil I took from my M-engines. There isn't a lot of magic in the boxer engine that isn't in the S54 M-engine. Both can do relatively high RPM, use plain bottom end bearings and use basically the same valve actuation design. Lost compression would show up with iron as a contaminant (from the rings) or chrome (if they're chrome rings).. not seeing that.
Too bad Spectro has such lousy marketing- could just buy the BMW equivalent stuff through other sources.

SAF-XO currently sold by BMW dealers is cheap these days - about half of what is used to be. BM NA for years sold Spectro made FD lubes, of course..

Yup. Price dropped hugely after the dealers complained about having cases of the stuff sitting around not selling at $50/liter :) Go figure. Capitalism at work again.
 
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Poked around a bit, not a huge amount of info out there on TWS, but here is what I found:

http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/4247_TWS_Motorsport_10W60_mseries_119397_2006_09.pdf

I also noticed that Aston-Martin, Toyota Supra and a number of other performance car owners seem to be using it now..

Here is a link to some of the analysis I've had done. A "virgin" sample of TWS to see what the anti-wear package numbers were, and some testing of BMW's 15W-50 synthetic oil. What I like is the viscosity number for the TWS at 100C.. the viscosity at 210F (normal operating range on my hexhead according to my GS-911) is almost identical between the two. The TWS provides more protection when things get hot. This is a good thing IMHO. http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?46436
 
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With all due respect, an "oil thread", even at this esteem level of sophistication, is still just an "oil thread"....now pass the Veedol 30 weight and a funnel!
 
Is this the same "lifetime" fill our R1200RTs first appeared with? Or was that a different lifetime lube that's been super-ceded?

They failed to mention the word "lifetime" wasn't referring to the motorcycle. It was some type of an organism that lived approximately 12 months.
 
Just a bit of info I found.. TWS is now "Edge Professional" 10W-60 - and sold by BMW car dealerships. Castrol decided to change the name. What I found interesting is searching on the BMW PN that is on the bottle, I came up with:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0468&mospid=51568&btnr=11_3539&hg=11&fg=05

It's on the K29-HP2-Sport's parts list as an engine oil. Apparently someone in BMW-Motorrad came to the same conclusions I did.. and spec'd it for the higher performance version of our engines. :D

Wonder what would happen if I tried ordering it at a bike dealership?
 
We lucky ones have a combined car/bike dealership and we'd just walk across to the car side and find it in stock. But if it's on an HP2 fiche a bike dealership can surely order it. Too many other factors to decide where it would be more expensive or if there would be a price difference. Any bike dealership with a regular HP2 customer ought to stock it.

I like to have fun with oil, too, and I'm now using Motorex Boxer 4T 15W-50 in my RT.

It's "designed in conjunction with AC Schnitzer" which must be fabulous in itself and best of all it's green ... so I can show it off in my sight glass. Plus, just as I'm fundamentally opposed to setting BMW valve clearances to inch measurements (should be metric), I find it more appealing to pour in motor oil from liter (not quart) sized containers, and Boxer 4T is indeed available in liter and 4 liter containers. And, it's from Switzerland and how cool is that? Livin' the life I tell you.

Boxer4T15w50.jpg
 
Hey. You can all thank me for reviving this oil thread. I'm coming up to my first 12k service for my '13 RT and I'm getting my fluids together.

In summary from this thread, it seems the ONLY oil BMW allows you to use in the transmission and final drive of the camheads is the Castrol SAF-XO (AKA Syntrax Long Life 75W-90), which is not available from any third party parts supplier here in the US. The only oil that can be used is the BMW OEM spec gear oil (part number 07512293972, which upon searching on a microfiche states it replaced the part number 33117695240 as specified in the RepROM). The best deal I can find on this is about $22 a liter online and is probably more at a dealership.

Considering I haven't seen specs defined anywhere for my camhead other than Castrol SAF-XO, to keep my extended warranty valid I suppose I will have to go buy the BMW OEM fluid (first time in my life ever doing that, lol).

Sound about right?
 
What I use is Amsoil 20w50 in the engine. Full synthetic.
And SAFXO or whatever, a 75-90 in the rear end.
But the original recommendation, I don't know if it's still the recommendation, was 75-140 for the transmission, which is what I just put in.
The only one I could find was Valvoline synthetic. That's what I use in the transmission.
You can use what you want, I suppose, and probably have no problem with it.
dc
 
Hey. You can all thank me for reviving this oil thread. I'm coming up to my first 12k service for my '13 RT and I'm getting my fluids together.

In summary from this thread, it seems the ONLY oil BMW allows you to use in the transmission and final drive of the camheads is the Castrol SAF-XO (AKA Syntrax Long Life 75W-90), which is not available from any third party parts supplier here in the US. The only oil that can be used is the BMW OEM spec gear oil (part number 07512293972, which upon searching on a microfiche states it replaced the part number 33117695240 as specified in the RepROM). The best deal I can find on this is about $22 a liter online and is probably more at a dealership.

Considering I haven't seen specs defined anywhere for my camhead other than Castrol SAF-XO, to keep my extended warranty valid I suppose I will have to go buy the BMW OEM fluid (first time in my life ever doing that, lol).

Sound about right?

Allows? If that's true, then they have to pay for it.
 
RTgearoil.jpg

Well, according to the RepROM, the gear oil is Castrol SAF-XO. It doesn't even specify the weight or any other details or specs. Nowhere in the user's manual does it state what type of transmission oil to use. Notice how for engine oil they can say they recommend Castrol, but don't mandate it. The way they specify it for the transmission oil (and final drive) seems to make it mandatory.

Now Castrol doesn't sell SAF-XO here in the states. Only BMW does, branded in their own bottle. If I were to use something else (say any type of GL5 75W90 gear oil) and my transmission were to fail while under warranty, they could simply say I was using the wrong transmission oil as specified by their service manual. So as far as I can see, the only safe route for me is to pick up the BMW gear oil. Thankfully it appears to have had the price reduced as early reports showed it selling at around $50 a liter.

Oh, and here's something funny. Looking at my older RepROM (pre-camhead version), here's what it specifies for the 05-09 RTs:

RTgearoil2.jpg

In the old RepROM it specifies GL-5 SAE 90 gear oil. In the new version it specifies the SAF-XO for the same bike's gear oil. It's clear they just decided to list that one specifically for all gear/final drive oil. Notice even in the old RepROM it specified the final drive oil as SAF-XO (due to the "lifetime" fill I suppose).
 
View attachment 44361

Well, according to the RepROM, the gear oil is Castrol SAF-XO. It doesn't even specify the weight or any other details or specs. Nowhere in the user's manual does it state what type of transmission oil to use. Notice how for engine oil they can say they recommend Castrol, but don't mandate it. The way the specify it for the transmission oil (and final drive) seems to make it mandatory.

Now Castrol doesn't sell SAF-XO here in the states. Only BMW does, branded in their own bottle. If I were to use something else (say any type of GL5 75W90 gear oil) and my transmission were to fail while under warranty, they could simply say I was using the wrong transmission oil as specified by their service manual. So as far as I can see, the only safe route for me is to pick up the BMW gear oil. Thankfully it appears to have had the price reduced as early reports showed it selling at around $50 a liter.

Oh, and here's something funny. Looking at my older RepROM (pre-camhead version), here's what it specifies for the 05-09 RTs:

View attachment 44362

In the old RepROM it specifies GL-5 SAE 90 gear oil. In the new version it specifies the SAF-XO for the same bike's gear oil. It's clear they just decided to list that one specifically for all gear/final drive oil. Notice even in the old RepROM it specified the final drive oil as SAF-XO (due to the "lifetime" fill I suppose).

The magnuson moss warranty act. If a manufacturer requires a specific oil lets say or gear oil, they have to supply it at their cost. They can only give a specification it has to meet. Of course they'd like the BMW dealer to do all the services and use only BMW supplied parts and fluids, but then they'd have to pay for that too if it was necessary. Look at the owner's manual. What does it specify?
 
The owner's manual makes no mention of fluids for the gearbox or FD.

Considering I only need slightly more than a liter (1060ccs to be precise) for 24k of riding, it's really not a big deal. I just have always preferred to have my choice of manufacturer based on the oil spec instead of being stuck buying only the OEM product.

Perhaps an email to BMW could clarify if they are specifying an oil type or requiring a specific oil for their transmission and FD.

*edit* I may have found it in the US: http://www.ecstuning.com/ES2562683/
 
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The owner's manual makes no mention of fluids for the gearbox or FD.

Considering I only need slightly more than a liter (1060ccs to be precise) for 24k of riding, it's really not a big deal. I just have always preferred to have my choice of manufacturer based on the oil spec instead of being stuck buying only the OEM product.

Perhaps an email to BMW could clarify if they are specifying an oil type or requiring a specific oil for their transmission and FD.

*edit* I may have found it in the US: http://www.ecstuning.com/ES2562683/

I've also heard Land Rover sells the same fluid. For me, it's not so much the price, but also availability and personal choice as I use Mobil 1 products. As long as it meets the specs, it's ok and that's the point.
 
I've also heard Land Rover sells the same fluid. For me, it's not so much the price, but also availability and personal choice as I use Mobil 1 products. As long as it meets the specs, it's ok and that's the point.
That's funny.

The "specs" are SAF-XO. Does your choice specifically say in print on the bottle it can replace SAF-XO? If not, well it doesn't meet the spec.

SAF-XO is a special formulation developed specifically for BMW to facilitate lifetime fill. It's what the transmission was designed around. The fact BMW now specifies change intervals changes nothing. (They don't fwiw in cars requiring this). Rear drive failures had nothing to do with not changing the fluid---they were manufacturing issues.

GL-5 and 75W-90 are minimum specs and BMW wants more.

Folks just need to understand that German auto industry engineers and designers never for a nanosecond anticipate DIY maintenance via Pep Boys or WalMart. Yes, it's the "merikun way," but it's irrelevant. The USA is not the leader of the automotive world.
 
That's funny.

The "specs" are SAF-XO. Does your choice specifically say in print on the bottle it can replace SAF-XO? If not, well it doesn't meet the spec.

SAF-XO is a special formulation developed specifically for BMW to facilitate lifetime fill. It's what the transmission was designed around. The fact BMW now specifies change intervals changes nothing. (They don't fwiw in cars requiring this). Rear drive failures had nothing to do with not changing the fluid---they were manufacturing issues.

GL-5 and 75W-90 are minimum specs and BMW wants more.

Folks just need to understand that German auto industry engineers and designers never for a nanosecond anticipate DIY maintenance via Pep Boys or WalMart. Yes, it's the "merikun way," but it's irrelevant. The USA is not the leader of the automotive world.

I think it's clear that BMW wants you to buy and use their "special formula." I just have a hard time buying into that especially when in their older service manual for hexheads it simply specified GL-5 SAE 90 gear oil. Now in their latest rendition of the service manual for the same bike it says SAF-XO. Clearly the bike itself didn't change and when they first developed it they felt the standard gear oil was sufficient (and I didn't hear of many transmission failures while using it). My last bike had at least 50k miles on it using normal gear oil in both the transmission and FD and never had a problem. I think their mandatory SAF-XO is just a marketing ploy to make you buy a specific product only from BMW. Considering my new bike has a 5 year warranty, I'm now forced to comply. If my bike wasn't under warranty, I'd have no problem putting in standard gear oil.
 
That's funny.

The "specs" are SAF-XO. Does your choice specifically say in print on the bottle it can replace SAF-XO? If not, well it doesn't meet the spec.

SAF-XO is a special formulation developed specifically for BMW to facilitate lifetime fill. It's what the transmission was designed around. The fact BMW now specifies change intervals changes nothing. (They don't fwiw in cars requiring this). Rear drive failures had nothing to do with not changing the fluid---they were manufacturing issues.

GL-5 and 75W-90 are minimum specs and BMW wants more.

Folks just need to understand that German auto industry engineers and designers never for a nanosecond anticipate DIY maintenance via Pep Boys or WalMart. Yes, it's the "merikun way," but it's irrelevant. The USA is not the leader of the automotive world.

Magnuson moss. If it has to be a particular lube, BMW has to pay for it.
 
A few points..

BMW-Motorad US sent a service bulletin to their dealers a number of years ago (around 2008 IIRC..) specifying that a 75W-90 oil be used in the rear drive. They mentioned the BMW branded synthetic. The BMW synthetic is not branded as a GL5.

The SAF-XO oil - if you research it IS a 75W-90 GL5 synthetic. It is now known (at least in the UK) as "SYNTRAX LONG LIFE 75W-90" http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9014115&contentId=7068181. SAF-XO is also not branded as a GL5.

Castrol does offer Castrol Syntrax Limited Slip 75w‑90 GL5 Gear Oil ‑ 43‑0336 in the US - it isn't branded "Long Life", but it does specify "extended drain intervals intervals" (same thing IMHO.) It's readily available in the US. Thing is - the "limited slip" specification. Castrol does make specific GL5 "limited slip" oils in Europe. The difference between a limited slip and "normal" gear oil is friction modifiers that are in the limited-slip oils. Limited slip differentials rely on clutches to provide the "limited" effect. If the oil doesn't have the friction modifiers the clutches tend to bind, causing snapping noises on tight radius circles.

What to use for the rear drive? I was using the BMW 75W-90 Super Synthetic. It was around $25/quart. I use the BMW labeled Castrol SAF-XO, which cost about $30/quart. Considering the change interval, and the amount used (a quart will last you a very long time.) Why do I use it? BMW said to and on the grand scheme of things - saving $15 or so by using some other brand - when you consider that the quart might well last the entire life of my bike - it's a big deal.

For the transmission - I use the BMW 75W-140 Super Synthetic.

One final point on rear-drives. The most common failure on the big-hole rear drives is the large "crown" bearing that carries the inside end of the big crown (output) gear. Thing is - that bearing IS NOT IN THE OIL. It's a sealed bearing that is external on the drive, with an oil seal BEHIND it that keeps the oil away from it. Changing oil brands will have no effect on that bearing.

Now - how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Inquiring minds wanna know..

Oh - one other thing. There is no Moss-Magnuson enforcement agency. If you want to enforce it - you're looking at hiring your own attorney to bring suit against BMW for violating the terms of the MM act. I don't think that would be cost effective to save $15 unless you're an attorney who doesn't value their time as worth much.
 
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