Post here if you've had prematurely worn cam lobe(s) in your wethead

mikehsg · May 7, 2021

ponch1 said:
I guess the DLC flaking off doesn't count.

We'll see. The suggested fix from Bob's was all 8 rocker arms and the worn cam. They say this, plus an oil change and filter is the approved repair.

With parts and labor it's just under $2k. We're asking BMW to cover it as a goodwill thing given the bike has but 17k miles on it, and was bought and serviced at dealerships and was in tolerance at 12k.

Hoping to hear back in the next few days.

I trust Bob's will do the best they can in this. They're awesome.

mikehsg · May 7, 2021

LFarling said:
So they are doing the rocker arms also. That is the issue as has been said but I still dont understand it.

If a diamond coating fails as in comes off, hows does it become harder and cut the cams more then a diamond coating? I mean I used diamond coated drill bits to cut glass so understand the abrasive properties but do not understand the sliding or not wearing the cam lobe unless it fails.

Not arguing, just trying to understand that concept.

Not really sure to be honest. If they're replacing all eight rocker arms, it would seem that the rocker arms are too hard for the cam material. If they're replacing the cam because it's too soft, that might be a second quality issue that when it's combined with the first, causes engine problems.

azgman · May 7, 2021

I they are replacing all 8 rocker arms, shouldn't they also replace all 4 cams? It seems there is no way to know if further degrading of the coating would not occur in the future.

mikehsg · May 7, 2021

azgman said:
I they are replacing all 8 rocker arms, shouldn't they also replace all 4 cams? It seems there is no way to know if further degrading of the coating would not occur in the future.

Not sure. My expertise is more with Harley motors than BMW's, this is my first one.

That said, if cost was no object and I was the one calling the shots, the protocol to assure no second-order impacts in my mind would be to replace the rocker arms, replace the cams (all of them). replace the oil pump (it's been pumping metal), replace the oil and filter, drop and flush the sump, and do a full engine flush to get as much metal out of the oil paths and bearings as humanly possible. Inspect the piston sleeves for scoring. Install a magnetic oil plug.

Then, treat it like a break-in service and change the oil and filter at 500-600 miles with a valve check, cam lobe inspection, and a solid eyeballing.

But that's a perfect situation in my mind.

ponch1 · May 7, 2021

azgman said:
I they are replacing all 8 rocker arms, shouldn't they also replace all 4 cams? It seems there is no way to know if further degrading of the coating would not occur in the future.

They have to be replaced as a set for each head.

ponch1 · May 7, 2021

mikehsg said:
Not sure. My expertise is more with Harley motors than BMW's, this is my first one.

That said, if cost was no object and I was the one calling the shots, the protocol to assure no second-order impacts in my mind would be to replace the rocker arms, replace the cams (all of them). replace the oil pump (it's been pumping metal), replace the oil and filter, drop and flush the sump, and do a full engine flush to get as much metal out of the oil paths and bearings as humanly possible. Inspect the piston sleeves for scoring. Install a magnetic oil plug.

Then, treat it like a break-in service and change the oil and filter at 500-600 miles with a valve check, cam lobe inspection, and a solid eyeballing.

But that's a perfect situation in my mind.

I've heard they only do the cams and followers. I have to wonder what the effects are of that crap going though the oiling system. It's like, lets do the bare minimum to get them beyond having to do anything more about it. IMO, I would say replace the engine.

cap · May 7, 2021

mikehsg said:
The suggested fix from Bob's was all 8 rocker arms ....

I think of those as "cam followers." And if they are replacing 8 cam followers, then they should also be replacing 4 camshafts.

As an aside, at least one member of this forum posted earlier in this thread that they had cam lobe wear happen a second time after the initial repair.

Cap

mikehsg · May 7, 2021

ponch1 said:
I've heard they only do the cams and followers. I have to wonder what the effects are of that crap going though the oiling system. It's like, lets do the bare minimum to get them beyond having to do anything more about it. IMO, I would say replace the engine.

I did tell the service writer if they'd give me full book for it I'd trade it right then. I have concerns for the longevity of the motor, TBH, but if the oil's clean and doesn't look like it had a stripper in the sump, may be OK. I mean, if the cam metal's crap then it's likely softer than the rest of the motor.

mxsx337 · May 9, 2021

What are the odds?

Does anyone have any idea of how prevalent the problem is? How many failures out of how many engines manufactured? Are there any dealers on this site that could tell us/me how many bikes (with this engine) have the problem vs. how many they've serviced? I'm having my bike (2017 R1200RT) checked (20,000 miles) this week and I'm wondering about my odds.

mikehsg · May 9, 2021

mxsx337 said:
Does anyone have any idea of how prevalent the problem is? How many failures out of how many engines manufactured? Are there any dealers on this site that could tell us/me how many bikes (with this engine) have the problem vs. how many they've serviced? I'm having my bike (2017 R1200RT) checked (20,000 miles) this week and I'm wondering about my odds.

Given there's been little effort in finding incidences and that the dealers seem to be quite familiar with it, the prevalence can't be that low. But, my gut tells me BMW considers the specifics to be proprietary as it's not a recall.

ponch1 · May 9, 2021

mxsx337 said:
Does anyone have any idea of how prevalent the problem is? How many failures out of how many engines manufactured? Are there any dealers on this site that could tell us/me how many bikes (with this engine) have the problem vs. how many they've serviced? I'm having my bike (2017 R1200RT) checked (20,000 miles) this week and I'm wondering about my odds.

I am sure BMW knows, but there's nothing to be gained by sharing that information. Heck, they are often reluctant to admit there are problems let alone the details of how many etc.

mikehsg · May 18, 2021

UPDATE: The awesome team at Bob's and BMW are making this one right. They're covering 100% of he repairs for me, and since it's dealer service, all parts and labor are warranted for 2 years.

Waiting on parts for a couple/few weeks, but they're standing behind the bike. THIS is how you get loyal riders!

mikehsg · May 18, 2021

LFarling said:
Good for you! A bright spot in this ongoing problem.

A shame for all those who have had this issue, and those who are yet to experience it.

Inspect, inspect, inspect!

pglaves · May 19, 2021

LFarling said:
I do every 6K.

I check valves and cam timing and change FD fluid and oil and filter every 6K.

It is all I can do to stay on top of it.

Once correctly set does the cam timing change???

cap · May 19, 2021

PGlaves said:
Once correctly set does the cam timing change???

I set my 2017 R1200RT at 9k miles, and the cam timing was off. Since then, I now have ~25k miles and have checked 3-4 times and the cam timing has been spot on. The clearances have been adjusted once during that period, without influencing the timing.

Cap

giarcg · May 19, 2021

Glancing at this thread for the first time and have not read all of it so maybe this has been covered...

From the few posts that I have read this problem/cause may be similar to what Ducati was dealing with in the early 2000's... and I dealt with on my ST4.

The problem as described by a vendor of replacement rockers...

"Q. What is the actual cause of rocker arm failure?

A. The most common failure "Flaking" ("Peeling") is caused by cracking and separation of the hard plated surface from the base material. The stock arms are cast from metal that is plated in the areas that are contacted by the cam shaft. The plating is a very hard and abrasion resistant material but it is also very brittle. The cast metal is porous, nodular, and relatively soft in comparison to the plating. Under normal operating conditions the cam shaft not only slides over the rocker arms it also impacts the face of the arms on each revolution. The plating is well suited to provide abrasion resistance from the sliding action but due to its brittle nature can not withstand impacts. The cam shaft impacting the surface of the rocker arm causes the plating to indent into the the cast metal material below and fracture. The fractured plating then peals off of the cast metal. The cam shaft lobes are then damaged by contact with the abrasive cast material."

lkraus · May 19, 2021

GIARCG said:
Glancing at this thread for the first time and have not read all of it so maybe this has been covered...

From the few posts that I have read this problem/cause may be similar to what Ducati was dealing with in the early 2000's... and I dealt with on my ST4.

The problem as described by a vendor of replacement rockers...

"Q. What is the actual cause of rocker arm failure?

A. The most common failure "Flaking" ("Peeling") is caused by cracking and separation of the hard plated surface from the base material. The stock arms are cast from metal that is plated in the areas that are contacted by the cam shaft. The plating is a very hard and abrasion resistant material but it is also very brittle. The cast metal is porous, nodular, and relatively soft in comparison to the plating. Under normal operating conditions the cam shaft not only slides over the rocker arms it also impacts the face of the arms on each revolution. The plating is well suited to provide abrasion resistance from the sliding action but due to its brittle nature can not withstand impacts. The cam shaft impacting the surface of the rocker arm causes the plating to indent into the the cast metal material below and fracture. The fractured plating then peals off of the cast metal. The cam shaft lobes are then damaged by contact with the abrasive cast material."

This is pretty much how I imagine the failed plating could cause the cam wear. But I think "abrasive cast material" base material is only part of the problem. If a bit of plating fractures and flakes off, it could leave a hard, sharp, edge behind, which could act like a chisel to remove material from the cam.

Wish someone with damaged cams would post pictures of the rocker arm surface.

giarcg · May 19, 2021

Confirmation of the Ducati problem was found by inspecting the sump screen... pics here:

https://www.ducati.ms/threads/metal-particles-on-oil-screen.68525/post-704699

motormike · May 20, 2021

Cam wear

The Ducati rocker arms are chrome plated against wear. The failures were caused when the improperly applied chrome plating would flake off, ruining both the rocker and the cam. When anyone does an oil change on a early to mid 2000's Ducati Desmoquattro Engine, they should pull the sump screen and check for the tell-tale shiny metal flakes that are a give-away of chrome flaking. Don't think the abnormal wear on the BMW is quite the same.

mikehsg · May 28, 2021

BMW Stood Behind It...

LAST Update: The fine folks at BMW FedEx'ed the parts to Bob's, and the experts at Bob's finished my bike up this evening. Charge to me? Nothing but downtime and a copy of my service records.

I can't thank Tony Rouse and the Bob's BMW team enough for advocating and working with BMW, and props to BMW for standing behind the bike.

You can crap on your dealerships all you like, but I'm keeping mine.

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