Canadian warranty - did you know?

jamesevans · Nov 11, 2016

BMW Canada tells me that new bike warranties in Canada are entirely the responsibility of the dealer. I have failed fork seals on a 2016 R1200RS at 22000 Km and my dealer tells me they are only covered for 7500km. Presumably that means you can expect to replace fork seals (not a trivial job) on any USD fork annually. Not why I bought a BMW.
Presumably it also means that if your seals fail while you're travelling in Canada you're SOL.
Who knew? I certainly didn't expect that sort of service on a "premium" brand.
I'm disgusted. Be warned.

dbrick · Nov 11, 2016

Did the bike come with a warranty document or booklet? What does it say?

Rinty · Nov 11, 2016

Ouch! Those are electronic forks, so that could be expensive.

James:

I tried to Google BMW Canada's warranty terms but couldn't pull anything up.

Typically, warranty terms are general in nature, with exclusions for certain things. I would take a very close look at the exclusions in your warranty booklet to see whether they specifically limit coverage on the suspension. If the exclusion is not clear, then a small claims judge will likely interpret the warranty in your favour under a legal rule called contra proferentum. The Small Claims Court limit in PEI is $8,000. There may be some free legal advisory clinics where you could get an opinion on the warranty. Also the P.E.I. Law Society has a referral service to lawyers that can give you a free half hour consultation:

http://www.canlaw.com/law-society/law-society-of-prince-edward-island.html#.WCYGymczXyo

Good luck.

pglaves · Nov 11, 2016

If indeed warranty responsibility rests entirely with the dealer, try another dealer.

dieselyoda · Nov 11, 2016

About ten years ago, Canada had the opportunity to enact legislation similar to the US Right to Repair Act which included a number of warranty statements.

We didn't enact any such legislation and currently in Canada, warranty is strictly defined as failure in workmanship or material. Having been on the dealer and OE side of both, we have an Ad Hoc warranty system in Canada which effectively puts the onus on the owner to prove warranty.

As it stands, the dealer provides warranty for the customer as a goodwill gesture in keeping with their dealership obligations. The dealer must receive clear permission from the OE to conduct any repairs under warranty and still, the dealer may be on the hook for parts/labour costs for several months while the claim is approved.

You can be denied warranty because you put an aftermarket device on your vehicle. There is currently a case in ON where a truck owner put an aftermarket sound system in his truck and subsequently, the transmission failed. He was denied warranty and is now fighting to prove the radio installation is not the cause of the transmission failure.

There are several OE that do not warranty their vehicles in Canada and the dealer must build an cost expectation for goodwill in the new price. In my city, there is an OE that for several years, did not provide any warranty on their equipment, some of which exceeded $300K new. During that time, the steering failed on one of their machines and the tractor drove over a car, killing all the occupants and severely hurting the operator. The cost to settle was beyond the scope of the insurance companies involved and ultimately, the OE was forced to re-org the entire business and now they offer an Ad Hoc warranty.

There are a number of reasons why Canadian Dealers do not want you to buy US-side vehicles and bring them here. Warranty is one reason.

BC1100S · Nov 11, 2016

jamesevans said:
BMW Canada tells me that new bike warranties in Canada are entirely the responsibility of the dealer. I have failed fork seals on a 2016 R1200RS at 22000 Km and my dealer tells me they are only covered for 7500km.

The dealer is responsible for performing warranty work. The manufacturer is responsible for the warranty. Further to Mr. Brick's comment, what does your owners manual or warranty book say? If the fork seals aren't referred to specifically, then they should be covered - all else being equal. If your dealer still pushes back, here's something which may be helpful....

http://www.consumerhandbook.ca/en/topics/products-and-services/warranties

dieselyoda · Nov 11, 2016

BC1100S said:
The dealer is responsible for performing warranty work. The manufacturer is responsible for the warranty. Further to Mr. Brick's comment, what does your owners manual or warranty book say? If the fork seals aren't referred to specifically, then they should be covered - all else being equal. If your dealer still pushes back, here's something which may be helpful....

http://www.consumerhandbook.ca/en/topics/products-and-services/warranties

I don't want to make a mess of the information being presented but in Canada, you do have CAMVAP, if you can afford it.

jamesevans · Nov 12, 2016

Rinty said:
Ouch! Those are electronic forks, so that could be expensive.

James:

I tried to Google BMW Canada's warranty terms but couldn't pull anything up.

Typically, warranty terms are general in nature, with exclusions for certain things. I would take a very close look at the exclusions in your warranty booklet to see whether they specifically limit coverage on the suspension. If the exclusion is not clear, then a small claims judge will likely interpret the warranty in your favour under a legal rule called contra proferentum. The Small Claims Court limit in PEI is $8,000. There may be some free legal advisory clinics where you could get an opinion on the warranty. Also the P.E.I. Law Society has a referral service to lawyers that can give you a free half hour consultation:

http://www.canlaw.com/law-society/law-society-of-prince-edward-island.html#.WCYGymczXyo

Good luck.

Thanks Rinty. I never got a warranty booklet - I looked at the BMW North America warranty and foolishly assumed it applied. I've used Small Claims Court before - if I don't get satisfaction it's well worth a go.

jamesevans · Nov 12, 2016

BC1100S said:
The dealer is responsible for performing warranty work. The manufacturer is responsible for the warranty. Further to Mr. Brick's comment, what does your owners manual or warranty book say? If the fork seals aren't referred to specifically, then they should be covered - all else being equal. If your dealer still pushes back, here's something which may be helpful....

http://www.consumerhandbook.ca/en/topics/products-and-services/warranties

Thank you. See my reply to Rinty below.

Rinty · Nov 12, 2016

Rinty said:
I tried to Google BMW Canada's warranty terms but couldn't pull anything up.

Ah, found it; it was way down at the bottom:

http://www.blackfootonline.com/updates/bmw_pdfs/roadside_warranty_0109.pdf

So it's a 36 month warranty for defects in materials or workmanship for unlimited kilometres, with an exclusion for "shocks and springs" after 7,500 km.

So is a fork seal a "shock" or a "spring"? It seems to me that the shock is inside the front suspension, a different part of which, failed.

jamesevans · Nov 12, 2016

dieselyoda said:
About ten years ago, Canada had the opportunity to enact legislation similar to the US Right to Repair Act which included a number of warranty statements.

We didn't enact any such legislation and currently in Canada, warranty is strictly defined as failure in workmanship or material. Having been on the dealer and OE side of both, we have an Ad Hoc warranty system in Canada which effectively puts the onus on the owner to prove warranty.

As it stands, the dealer provides warranty for the customer as a goodwill gesture in keeping with their dealership obligations. The dealer must receive clear permission from the OE to conduct any repairs under warranty and still, the dealer may be on the hook for parts/labour costs for several months while the claim is approved.

You can be denied warranty because you put an aftermarket device on your vehicle. There is currently a case in ON where a truck owner put an aftermarket sound system in his truck and subsequently, the transmission failed. He was denied warranty and is now fighting to prove the radio installation is not the cause of the transmission failure.

There are several OE that do not warranty their vehicles in Canada and the dealer must build an cost expectation for goodwill in the new price. In my city, there is an OE that for several years, did not provide any warranty on their equipment, some of which exceeded $300K new. During that time, the steering failed on one of their machines and the tractor drove over a car, killing all the occupants and severely hurting the operator. The cost to settle was beyond the scope of the insurance companies involved and ultimately, the OE was forced to re-org the entire business and now they offer an Ad Hoc warranty.

There are a number of reasons why Canadian Dealers do not want you to buy US-side vehicles and bring them here. Warranty is one reason.

Wow. ****ty, isn't it?

Rinty · Nov 12, 2016

jamesevans said:
Thanks Rinty. I never got a warranty booklet - I looked at the BMW North America warranty and foolishly assumed it applied. I've used Small Claims Court before - if I don't get satisfaction it's well worth a go.

If you file, you could also plead, in the alternative, that there has been a breach of an implied statutory warranty of reasonable fitness for the purpose, under section 16 (a) of the P.E.I. Sale of Goods Act. There is an exclusion in the subsection for goods sold under their "patent or other trade name", and I don't know how this has been interpreted or what it means, but another attorney I spoke to, who is quite gifted, thought that whatever it means, it would be very narrowly interpreted.

In any event, the small claims judges here tend to be non technical in their analyses, and I suspect that to be the case in your province as well.

You can pull up the Sale of Goods Act on a Google search, or just go to the CanLII site.

Good luck.

BC1100S · Nov 12, 2016

Rinty said:
In any event, the small claims judges here tend to be non technical in their analyses, and I suspect that to be the case in your province as well.

To my mind a front fork is not a "shock". Were one to provide illustrations of each item to the small claims court judge, you might be pleasantly surprised at the verdict. But that would be my last resort - I'd write a nice letter to BMW Canada requesting a fix before I went to court.

Segue: Is the warranty in the US worded the same (excepting metric measurement)?

dbrick · Nov 12, 2016

Glad to see there is an actual warranty, and that it is documented. All in all, this is pretty much the same as a US warranty, including that the terms are dictated by the importer, and the dealer does the work.

From my perspective (I'm a retired attorney who has sat pro tem many times in Small Claims Court here in California), "shocks and springs" would not encompass fork seals. OTOH, BMW Canada might assert that the seals are "normal wear and tear" items and therefore not covered, particularly if the seals are specified to be replaced on a regular basis.

At least in the US system, vagueness in warranty language would be interpreted against the party who drafted the language.

BMW Triumphant · Nov 12, 2016

dbrick said:
At least in the US system, vagueness in warranty language would be interpreted against the party who drafted the language.

Not a lawyer, but I believe this is true in Canadian contract law as well.

I would think the seals are normal wear items, but that's just me.

Rinty · Nov 12, 2016

dbrick said:
At least in the US system, vagueness in warranty language would be interpreted against the party who drafted the language.

...I believe this is true in Canadian contract law as well...BMW Triumphant

Yes. It's a common issue in insurance contracts.

...I'd write a nice letter to BMW Canada requesting a fix before I went to court...BC1100S

Yes, but I'd address it to both BMW Canada and the dealer. But I wouldn't join BMW Canada in the Civil Claim - I'd keep it simple.

James:

In the interim, if you have the repairs done by the dealer, and when they have you sign the invoice, make a note that you're paying on a without prejudice basis. Just print "paid without prejudice" somewhere, and initial it.

36654 · Nov 12, 2016

BMW Triumphant said:
Not a lawyer, but I believe this is true in Canadian contract law as well.

I would think the seals are normal wear items, but that's just me.

At 7500km? Even the old K-bike fork seals lasted longer than that......

dbrick · Nov 12, 2016

BMW Triumphant said:
I would think the seals are normal wear items, but that's just me.

Everything wears, but at different rates. If something might be expected to wear out in 10 years or 100K miles, for instance, that'd pretty clearly be a non-wear item. OTOH, if something wears out regularly every six months, and furthermore is specified in the maintenance schedules to be replaced twice a year, then that'd be a wear item.

Beyond these sorts of factors, it's a continuum: we can define the end points, but the middle is grey.

Because my guess is that fork seals aren't regularly replaced on BMW telescopic-forked bikes at intervals of less than three years, I'd say they're non-wear items. But I'm not wearing the black robe here.

dbrick · Nov 12, 2016

Rinty said:
Yes, but I'd address it to both BMW Canada and the dealer. But I wouldn't join BMW Canada in the Civil Claim - I'd keep it simple.

This is interesting. In the US, the plaintiff always wants to bring all possible defendants into a civil proceeding. If a possible defendant isn't sued, another defendant will surely that the one who isn't part of the proceeding is really responsible for the damage or injury. In the US, this might result in a finding of no liability against the defendant in the courtroom, with no possibility of a subsequent separate proceeding against the other non-present defendant.

Why is it different in Canada?

dieselyoda · Nov 12, 2016

dbrick said:
Why is it different in Canada?

I'm sure somebody familiar with our system can answer that better than me but I have a story that seems to be universal in my world.

Few/many years ago, customer blew-up his engine. We bought a Re-Man from the dealer here. It blew-up. The customer sued us, we lost. We sued the dealer, we won. The dealer sued the Re-Man OE and they won. The Re-Man OE sued the parts supplier for the original failed part. He lost. The part was warrantied at the parts cost but on their invoice it very clearly stated they weren't responsible for incidental damages.

The lawyers made their money and after all the effort and time I went through to take care of my end, the original labour charge of $140.00/hr trickled down to just enough money to buy myself a half a beer.

In all of this, it was correctly diagnosed from day one after the Re-Man failed, that the part that failed was manufactured incorrectly. The gear was never hardened properly. So much for warranty in Canada.

Canadian warranty - did you know?

New member

rabid reader

New member

#13338

Active member

Left Coast Rider

Active member

New member

New member

New member

New member

New member

Left Coast Rider

rabid reader

Ed Kilner #176066

New member

New member

rabid reader

rabid reader

Active member

Similar threads