BMW Navigator V BATTERY

patm · Mar 16, 2021

GlobalRider said:
Well you should not have to unplug the battery to avoid battery drain at the rate it does drain.
I mean all batteries including those that are unplugged self-drain.
I can shut down my cell phone, my MP3 player, my tablet and it maintains the battery levels for months.

Anyway, I fully shut down my fully charged Navigator V 21 days ago and the battery today sat at what looks like a 2/3 charge level.

Someone ought to fire the engineers at Garmin! They probably got them from Funkies 'R Us.

I understand but when you think that when the Nav V originally came out in 2013, it was based on state of the art technology from 2010 or earlier.
There aren't many cell phones from that era still running. How many 10 YO designs still run today?

The reasons they're still around are they're rugged and reliable. Could they be improved? Sure.

globalrider · Mar 16, 2021

patm said:
There aren't many cell phones from that era still running. How many 10 YO designs still run today?

Actually both of them from 2005 and 1014 still do. Remember the Nokia 6100? Nice and compact and I used it for 9 years. Then the Samsung ATIV-S for 5.5 years and it only got replaced with another Samsung not that the old one was broken. I just replaced my Sony XBR Vega CRT television that was 19 years old. I now have a flat-screen. Just because it is "new" doesn't mean I will march out like a lemming and buy it.

And you know what I did with the money I saved? I bought a second 911, this one a heavily optioned 991 GTS and all on a tech's salary. There must be some Scottish and Dutch in me.

I've always said, I am a marketing exec's worst nightmare.

alancoles · Mar 17, 2021

GlobalRider said:
... I don't know if this is true or not, but from what I read on the internet when the BMW Navigator V/VI is in the cradle and you shut down, the GPS does not do a full shut down...

That is correct Alex, the unit merely goes into "sleep" when in the BMW cradle/mount, and one turns off the ignition. Turning off the ignition cuts power to the mount and the GPS with display

The only way to turn off the GPS is to remove it from the mount and physically hold down the power button until presented with the screen prompt to "Turn off the device" and selecting that option.

GlobalRider said:
... Anyway, I fully shut down my fully charged Navigator V 21 days ago and the battery today sat at what looks like a 2/3 charge level ...

That is in line with my experience as well Alex.

I have definitely observed either an unintended leak (drain) within the design/construction of the unit that hauls the battery charge down quicker than an unplugged battery by a significant degree. It seems present in most of my Garmins, but to a noticeably greater degree with the Nav-VI.

globalrider · Mar 17, 2021

AlanColes said:
That is in line with my experience as well Alex.

I am keeping the unit within easy reach instead of stored in the basement till the riding season starts.

I charged it last night. It is too much of a PITA to take the battery out because I have 3M PPF on the tops and bottoms to prevent chaffing when I have the Wunderlich sun screen on the GPS. I look after my gear as I do my vehicles.

Oh, one thing I noticed is the back of the GPS gets warm. Now that is not a good sign for a new battery. Maybe the battery is being overcharged and that is a no-no for a Li-Ion battery.

alancoles · Mar 17, 2021

GlobalRider said:
... I have the Wunderlich sun screen on the GPS...

I use the same one. Works well except if the sun is behind me where the shade can't really help.

GlobalRider said:
... Oh, one thing I noticed is the back of the GPS gets warm. Now that is not a good sign for a new battery. Maybe the battery is being overcharged and that is a no-no for a Li-Ion battery.

Hadn't noticed (or checked) that. You're quite right about Li-Ion batteries not liking being overcharged, interesting possibility.

globalrider · Mar 18, 2021

AlanColes said:
Hadn't noticed (or checked) that. You're quite right about Li-Ion batteries not liking being overcharged, interesting possibility.

If I have the time in the near future, I can open up the back of the unit, connect some thin wire-wrap wires to it and monitor the charge with my MadgeTech data unit. I would not expect the charge voltage to go higher than 8.4V (4.2V per cell). I am assuming they are in series since the battery lists 7.4V (3.7V OCV). Now that has me wondering how a USB of 5V charges the battery unless they have voltage doublers in the circuit of the battery or the unit.

Life would he a heck of a lot easier if they used a single cell (3.7V battery) as they do on other Garmin units. Hell, even my Garmin 60 Cx unit takes two AA batteries and it runs for 14 to 16 hours. It is simple charging a single cell battery and not have to worry about cell balancing in multi-cell batteries.

guenner · Mar 18, 2021

Li-nnn batteries are charged per cell. This is needed to control the temperature of each cell while charging with 3 wires out of each cell.

Some batteries have a small built-in temperature controller and you have only 2 wires coming out.

/Guenther

alancoles · Mar 22, 2021

GlobalRider said:
If I have the time in the near future, I can open up the back of the unit, connect some thin wire-wrap wires to it and monitor the charge with my MadgeTech data unit. I would not expect the charge voltage to go higher than 8.4V (4.2V per cell). I am assuming they are in series since the battery lists 7.4V (3.7V OCV). Now that has me wondering how a USB of 5V charges the battery unless they have voltage doublers in the circuit of the battery or the unit.

Life would he a heck of a lot easier if they used a single cell (3.7V battery) as they do on other Garmin units. Hell, even my Garmin 60 Cx unit takes two AA batteries and it runs for 14 to 16 hours. It is simple charging a single cell battery and not have to worry about cell balancing in multi-cell batteries.

Alex, this opens up another, and even bigger can of worms.

You may be aware of the significant issues users have been experiencing with the Garmin/BMW Nav-VI screen ghosting, acting like it has gone whacky, etc., and how these are being replaced by Garmin at an alarming rate. I am on my 3rd unit!

After doing some testing and sending them back my 1st unit, I spoke with Garmin about two years ago and suggested to them that it appear to potentially be an issue with the power connection on the GPS. I tested my GPS against other Nav-VIs that were not acting up and it didn't matter which bike they were mounted to, the issue stayed with the GPS so it was not a GPS mount issue, however, I never had the issue while the GPS was being handheld and so wondered if it might be something like the old "cold solder joint" things.

Later, I noticed that it never acted up when it was being charged from a computer either and now with the battery issue potentially being an overcharging issue, I'm wondering if the ghosting/erratic behaviour could also be from overcharging.

globalrider · Mar 22, 2021

Guenther said:
Li-nnn batteries are charged per cell.

Hopefully, because single cell charging is the best and really only way to get the maximum life out of a battery, provided you follow charging specs.

Guenther said:
Some batteries have a small built-in temperature controller and you have only 2 wires coming out.

/Guenther

Which is why I like chargers like the Xantrex TrueCharge II where you can connect a temperature lead to the charger and connect the sensor to the negative battery post. The charge algorithm (voltages) are controlled that way.

The battery in the BMW Navigator V has 4 wires: a red, a black and two identical blue wires.

Sure enough, a few days ago, I measured each cell of the old battery. One cell was at 3.21V and the other cell was at roughly 0.06V.

globalrider · Mar 22, 2021

AlanColes said:
You may be aware of the significant issues users have been experiencing with the Garmin/BMW Nav-VI screen ghosting, acting like it has gone whacky, etc., and how these are being replaced by Garmin at an alarming rate. I am on my 3rd unit!

Sorry, I haven't really heard much about it since I do not follow it on forums. With 4 BMW GSes in my stable, I can joke and say it is a BMW issue. LOL

AlanColes said:
I spoke with Garmin about two years ago and suggested to them that it appear to potentially be an issue with the power connection on the GPS.

By that you mean "internally" at the circuit board level.

AlanColes said:
Later, I noticed that it never acted up when it was being charged from a computer either and now with the battery issue potentially being an overcharging issue, I'm wondering if the ghosting/erratic behaviour could also be from overcharging.

I am only calling it "overcharging" because having worked with other batteries (FLA, AGM, GEL, NiCad) in labs, batteries do not overheat unless you are pumping them up with huge currents. That or you have high internal resistance.

I used my Samsung cell phone charger (1A), plugged in the Garmin cable and the back of my Garmin was quite warm, far more that I would expect. The battery itself would be much warmer. And this with a NEW Garmin battery.

I have no issues with the two Garmin 60 Cx and my nüvi 40 LM GPSes that I have had for ages.

globalrider · Mar 31, 2021

By the way, I just updated the software on my LAUNCH CRP 129E diagnostic tester (it is a car diagnostic tester) and the battery displayed 100%. Wow!

This after I last did an update and charged the battery 2020-09-28, just over 6 months ago. Amazingly, someone at LAUNCH knew how to design a circuit that didn't deplete the battery when it was shut down.

globalrider · Nov 7, 2023

Thanks to Dave Swider who had me check something on my helmet mounted Sena 10R cmmunicator, I also paired it with my BMW Navigator V to confirm the same result I was getting from my Android cell phone.

Well wouldn't you know it. I fully charged the BMW Navigator V less than a month ago, I pair it to the Sena, I get a full GREEN battery bar and within 10 minutes I am down to almost nothing. This is OFF bike...on my kitchen table. A clear indication my BMW Navigator V battery has no capacity. And that battery hardly had any use on it. I have other devices with a Li-Ion battery and years later they out-class a BMW Navigator V battery and maintain a charge/capacity, like my 4 year old Samsung phone.

A bit pi$$ed! Its on charge again and since it has no capacity, it'll be fully charged in no time. Somebody with a PhD must have designed the circuit. :banghead

Don't even get me going having taught some of those guys to fly aircraft and that was a disaster.

How are you guys doing with a Garmin Zumo? (non-BMW-Garmin GPS)? Can you shut it down and months later it still has a full charge and full capacity. And if you have a new Zumo, how does it connect to the BMW-GSA mount and have full functionality. I looked at it last week and it looks like it can't.

You can tell winter is coming.

88bmwjeff · Nov 7, 2023

GlobalRider said:
How are you guys doing with a Garmin Zumo? (non-BMW-Garmin GPS)? Can you shut it down and months later it still has a full charge and full capacity. And if you have a new Zumo, how does it connect to the BMW-GSA mount and have full functionality. I looked at it last week and it looks like it can't.

You can tell winter is coming.

3DAM has an adaptor to attach the Zumo to the BMW-GPS mount. https://www.adapter3dmotorrad.com/en/product-category/motorcycle/bmw-en/

You do loose the wonder wheel functionality. I typically set my destinations in the GPS while stopped/parked and not while riding/driving. So, it doesn't bother me that there's no wonder wheel access/functionality.

globalrider · Nov 8, 2023

88bmwjeff said:
You do loose the wonder wheel functionality.

I thought so after looking at the rear pins on both the Nav V and the Zumo last week. Thanks for confirming that.

I might just buy a new battery. I just had it on charge all night and it is still showing "low battery". Since the Nav V battery is two Li-Ion batteries in series (2 x 3.7V = 7.4V) I would bet you the ultra-short battery life has everything to do with the charging circuit built into the battery pack. One thing I know is Li-Ion batteries should never be overcharged; that kills them

And the low capacity is understandable in a lead acid battery due to sulphation, but every Li-Ion battery I have (cell phone, digi-cam, all single cell batteries), some that are over 10 years old are fine...other than this dual cell BMW-Garmin battery.

kbasa · Nov 8, 2023

PGlaves said:
Well maybe, but the Garmin products have been light-years (exaggeration for effect) ahead of competitors such as Tom Tom, Rand McNally, Xgody, and other little known brands found in obscure truck stops. I have found the Garmin units we have owned to be very good (3, 3+, 5, Street Pilot, Colormap, 276C, 2610, 2720, Zumo 660, and a few Nuvi's). I have also found Garmin's software to be some sort of Disney Land Mickey Mouse joke. I finally made peace with Mapsource, but have not with Basecamp or Garmin Express. I have had mixed results with firmware updates.

As a person that lives with and has input into software design and user experience, Garmin products are the worst software products I use. It's like they're determined to make it as difficult as possible to build a route and load it. It's a level of unnecessary complexity that isn't present in any other tools I use, including the ones I help sell at work. If there's any product in my life that could use a smart AI helper, it would be something bolted to Garmin's stuff.

And now, I want to go play with ChatGPT some more and see if it can give me a gpx or a route based on my preferences and description.

"Make me a route that visits Avenue of the Giants, Booneville, Clearlake, Mendocino and Fortuna that avoids highways and uses twisty, scenic roads. Export it as a .gpx file"

Maybe that's my new post retirement career. Adding AI capabilities to Garmin's horrible interface. :ha

No direct export yet, but that API integration sure seems like a way to make it work. Maybe I'll go play with Google's tools for a while. OpenAI isn't ready yet.

kbasa · Nov 8, 2023

GlobalRider said:
I thought so after looking at the rear pins on both the Nav V and the Zumo last week. Thanks for confirming that.

I might just buy a new battery. I just had it on charge all night and it is still showing "low battery". Since the Nav V battery is two Li-Ion batteries in series (2 x 3.7V = 7.4V) I would bet you the ultra-short battery life has everything to do with the charging circuit built into the battery pack. One thing I know is Li-Ion batteries should never be overcharged; that kills them

And the low capacity is understandable in a lead acid battery due to sulphation, but every Li-Ion battery I have (cell phone, digi-cam, all single cell batteries), some that are over 10 years old are fine...other than this dual cell BMW-Garmin battery.

I had to buy a battery for my 590. It was cheap and it solved my dead/weak battery issues. It took like two seconds to swap it out. Not sure if that's true for the Nav 5, but it was a non-issue.

globalrider · Nov 8, 2023

kbasa said:
As a person that lives with and has input into software design and user experience, Garmin products are the worst software products I use. It's like they're determined to make it as difficult as possible to build a route and load it.

Well being a "user", I have to agree.

My idea of planning a route: pick a Start Point and an End Point and let the program generate a route based on route options from a pull down menu, and if you do not like the route in between, pull the route down to another road...a-la-Google Maps.

Real easy!

globalrider · Nov 8, 2023

kbasa said:
I had to buy a battery for my 590. It was cheap and it solved my dead/weak battery issues. It took like two seconds to swap it out. Not sure if that's true for the Nav 5, but it was a non-issue.

The BMW Navigator V is a matter of two screws and off comes the cover...30 seconds.

I just called Garmin today and guess what, the batteries are back-ordered and I have to wonder why. Not that I need it till next April.

So when I get the new one, I'll fully charge it and then remove the battery from my Navigator V and just let it sit for a month or two before the riding season starts. That'll tell me if it is self-discharging without being connected to anything, be it the battery itself or the circuit board part of the battery pack that was poorly designed.

Dave, if you followed my post above, Li-Ion batteries last a long time and pretty well maintain their capacity, but then they are single cell packs and easier to control for a long life.

brownie0486 · Nov 8, 2023

I'm running 2 Nav5's. The batteries, even when shut down properly, lose most of their charge in 3 weeks.

I also have a Nav4 that's held a full charge for 4 months at this point. When I had the Nav5 screen replaced as I'd cracked it and it froze up, the repair guy told me the 5's are known for not holding a charge. It's the nature of that beast. Why? I don't, nor do I care.

I did find out by happenstance that when one of the 5 units was set into the cradle, it would not come on [ battery was dead and the cradle would not bring it back ]. Once I plugged it into my computer for 1/2 hour, it came up in the cradle and charged from that point forward. Now I make sure the units have some charge before heading out on a trip.

BTW, I have 3 spare Nav5 batteries. One made in 2016, another last year and the original that's ancient but still runs fine in the Nav as long as it has some charge to use it in the cradle.

I have another NIB Nav 5 coming from Ma. next week I picked up for a song. That one will go to my brother when he arrives for holiday and I'll give him one of the spare batts for it. He already runs an Nav5 as well.

globalrider · Nov 8, 2023

brownie0486 said:
I'm running 2 Nav5's. The batteries, even when shut down properly, lose most of their charge in 3 weeks.

The test I'll do will confirm if battery charge depletion is a battery pack issue or an issue with the Nav 5 unit.

Same here, my Nav 5 when stored in the cradle might be blank till I am on the road for 15 or so minutes till it charges up.

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