BMW engineers do it right

This was posted in another thread along with a comment about shade tree mechanics.

I am currently in the middle of a major overhaul of a BMW airhead bike. This will be the first major restore or overhaul of this bike. I have in the past restored two R90S bikes an a partial restore of a 78RS.

One thing I am certain of is BMW engineers didn't always get it right. Or should I say, some may have but it is not apparent to me.

I find myself cursing the many goofy ways things were designed on this motorcycle that make it a royal pain to work on but in all honesty made it faster and cheaper to assemble in the factory. After all, that is the real bottom line, design it so it goes together fast, with cheapest materials and sell for the most money.

When it comes time to have it repaired, design it so it has to go back to the factory dealership shop where we can charge boutique prices for service and repair.

I am by all accounts a "shade tree" mechanic, but I can say this, I sure as heck could if I had been an engineer, designed better ways to put things together on this bike to make it easier to work on.

Then again, I forget, BMW doesn't like or want people like me as customers, They want customers who trade in bikes every three years, not keep them for 36 years and hundreds of thousand miles.

They can't stay in business just selling parts even if they did sell all the parts I need to keep my bike on the road. Sadly, they don't even sell all the parts I need.

They also don't want to bother with the dealerships working on old bikes like mine. I was told by my now gone dealer when he opened in 94 that my 84 bike was too old for him to work on, buy a new one.

Lucky for me, the old dealer's mechanic went shade tree and opened a dedicated airhead shop around the corner from the old dealership.

Nope, I am NOT an engineer, nor am I currently a paid mechanic, I am just a enthusiast who likes a particular bike enough to put up with the nonsense involved in overhauling it so it will be on the road for the next 20 years or 100K miles.

BMW engineers may do it right some of time and sometimes shade tree mechanics do it right, neither are perfect. This shade tree mechanic will get the job done and it will be done right, no thanks to BMW engineers and management. St.

I’m in agreement with you.

Engineers design what the corporate level directs. Production cost and efficiency.

I sometimes welcome the challenge of repairing that which was not meant to be repaired.
Thanks to the internet I can find other like minded mechanics and parts.

As a shade tree mechanic myself I have found this applies to most anything I have worked on in my life time. While some company may be a bit better than another there are always things that could have been engineered better. I do not find BMW significantly worse than most but I do get aggravated by all the additional pain all of them cost us by poor design. I am not sure I would want to pay the price of the same items if they were engineered perfectly however so it is a toss up in my book. I also look back on most of the stuff I have engineered myself and see improvements I could have made to my once thought of perfect design. Oh well.

One thing I am certain of is BMW engineers didn't always get it right. Or should I say, some may have but it is not apparent to me.

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I'm pretty sure I saw the post you are referring to- Meh.

They (BMW dealers) will sell an owner any part that they have in stock. I don't think these parts were to be put on the mantel.

It's getting BMW air for your tires that is the most important thing, everyone knows that

OM

And got to be BMW dry nitrogen.

I read a quote in an SCCA magazine...

"When you invent something, you have to invent the way of making it as well..."

I think back on that everytime I run into an issue like you describe. Sometimes it might be in the making, sometime it might be in the installation. Or the cost of either.

For a 40 year old bike, I'm amazed at how .much is available to work on it. Parts and information.

Enjoy the journey.

Oh and remember, some parts are designed during Octoberfest.

R65_Steve said:

Oh and remember, some parts are designed during Octoberfest.

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Yes, and by the intern.

Years ago I worked as a mechanic at a heavy equipment construction dealership. Training was important to this dealership, and classes were taught by factory engineers. One day the discussion turned to XYZ part that always had to be replaced, and why the heck could the factory design something more worthy. The instructor stopped the class and told us what the protocol was on manufacturing. Accountants dictated what an engineer could spend to make a part or component. After the shock of that sunk in, the question was asked: “what if you can’t make that component for the money given to your department?” The reply was that you do the best you can. It changed my whole way of thinking. I realized that maybe the engineers were pretty smart, just restricted.
I’m not saying that this is how all manufacturing is done, but I bet it’s close. I have always found airheads easy to work on. My only engineering complaint on these old machines is nothing.
Doug

I keep a bunch of generators up. CAT likes to put a window in the end panels so operational parameters can be looked at without opening the door. When the generator display faces the sun for the better part of the day, the direct sunlight ruins the display. After one went bad, I asked “what’s up with that “ ? I got a “that’s the way CAT does it”.
I have painted all the windows black. Make an engineer work in the field a while will probably help.
OM

The secret to keeping your airhead in like new condition: don't ride it.

There is a saying in engineering... Better is the enemy of good enough. Looking at the design of the 1970 - 1985 airhead BMW motorcycle as I have now since they began rolling off the assembly line, I have to say that once one learns the assembly order and specifications, maintenance and repair are straight forward as can be. I like that an amazing assortment of parts fit through all years. The ease of assembly on the line at the factory makes them just as easy to work on and get right after delivery and years of use. The old airheads were built to what I refer to as "military specifications". Good enough to perform the mission and easy to service in the field if necessary. The 70's and early 80's airhead design is the culmination of that mind set. My KTM LC4 is a nightmare just to change the oil and has more bolts, screws and odd fasteners than a family size bottle of Advil has pills. That is my perspective after owning 140 different airheads and having built at least 30 of those from scratch. Your mileage may vary - considerably. I do understand the frustration some experience though.

This is only marginally related but relevant nonetheless less. I used to be a partner in a Civil Engineering, Land Survey, Planning, and Landscape Architecture firm. We did a lot of public works (streets, water line, sanitary sewer, storm sewer) projects as well as new subdivision design. We had a rule: The design engineer for a project had to be on the survey crew when doing the survey prior to design work and also had to be on the survey crew when the project, after design, was staked for construction.

After the first experience of having to do the field work before the design and again after the design our design work got much better and more precise. Things did not get overlooked. Once the engineers saw how it was easier to do it right the first time rather than re-design in the field things were a lot better.

If a company applied the same principals to the design of objects I think the results would be improved.

“It all fits, it all worked on paper”.
OM

Before

In the days before robot assembly, bikes were works of art. Craftsmanship was apparent in the design, build, and look. They could be worked on easily and this allowed the owner/rider to become more involved with them, they were more than just a ride.

Of course, you had to be able to easily work on them because as we all know, they were not as reliable as now. Points and valves needed adjustment regularly, oil and filters changed more often just to keep them running.


Turning design, and manufacturing over to computer assisted, robotics, has given us the crop of bikes we have now. Most I am sorry to say are just butt ugly to my eyes, all are far more complex than I feel they need to be.


Yes, of course a new bike will outperform my two airheads, and requires less work to keep running, or so people tell me. I counter this statement with yes, you do oil changes less frequently, but when you do, (at a dealership). how much does it cost you? If you do your own oil changes, how hard is it. Can you do brake fluid flushes, gear and fork oil changes, without a major undertaking?

Would you be comfortable tearing the bike down to bare frame and rebuilding it so it will run another 100K miles? I don't follow the oil head or hex head or water head forums, does anyone there restore these bikes? Has anyone written about a 100K overhaul?

I have said before in my other posts, BMW stopped making motorcycles attractive to me in 1984. I won't quibble about the reasons I say 84, and I do like the 93 to 95 GS bikes, but after 95, BMW bikes started looking more and more like something a robot would build rather than a human. Soft curves, and yes, sex appeal went on the back burner to be replaced by form and function.

I enjoyed looking at the cafe racers in the Motorad forum listing. Some of them really show the beauty of men and women's handiwork. Of course, for all I know, each of the shops building these bikes could well do all the design by computer aided stuff.
I don't know if the bikes created are any easier to work on and maintain. But some are really beautiful.

It is Sunday morning and I am bored so I wrote this. Cheers, St.

Nikola Tesla, who was working for Edison, told him that AC current was the future. Edison insisted on DC. Tesla quit and sold his plans to Westinghouse. They built the Niagara power generating system. Maybe there's a lesson for BMW engineers they've been crapping with the new oil head bikes that are reliability failures while airheads just keep rolling along. Sometimes you just have to have the balls to go against the boss and quit

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

frasermanx said:

Nikola Tesla, who was working for Edison, told him that AC current was the future. Edison insisted on DC. Tesla quit and sold his plans to Westinghouse. They built the Niagara power generating system. Maybe there's a lesson for BMW engineers they've been crapping with the new oil head bikes that are reliability failures while airheads just keep rolling along. Sometimes you just have to have the balls to go against the boss and quit

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

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If BMW built an Airhead today it might be able to be sold in some parts of Asia and Africa but certainly not in the United States or European Union.

Having owned both German cars and motorcycles since the 1970s, I can say with certainty ... German automotive engineers do NOT consider DIY maintenance by shadetree mechanics a design priority.

The plan is for trained technicians to follow factory procedures using factory special tools where required. DIY mechanics should do the same. The fact you're not trained or have the service manual or have not seen a procedure previously is your problem. BMW ensures that its dealers can do the work. In fact, even in the 21st century BMW retains it's conservative approach in anticipation of its liability and attempts to have its motorcycles in the hands of trained technicians as often as possible by specifying (for 21st century) abnormally short service intervals.

All BMW motorcycle owners should understand that the automotive culture in Germany is not the same as it is in the USA. Germany has no history of automobiles for the masses until after world war 2 (the VW was the first attempt, but it didn't take off until after the war.) Automobiles were for the rich and for industrial users. Germany therefore does not have a history of dirt cheap mass produced Model Ts sold out in the hinterlands to be maintained by owners using baling wire and hammers. The fact that this is our culture in the USA is meaningless to German automotive designers.

None of this reality means German engineers got it wrong. Very few machines are perfect from day one--how long do you want to test before you go into production? Do you want to raise the price of your product to recover endless testing? So yes, there have been mistakes, the warping big valve heads, the unleaded fuel fiasco, etc. Plenty of that to go around with all manufacturers.

It's pretty hilarious when shadetree mechanics with no engineering design training or experience comment on "design errors," but it happens all the time. Keeps us entertained, I suppose.

PS: What are some culture differences?

Valve cover gaskets that can be reused.
Crush washers
Spark plugs correctly gapped out of the box
The Bosch electrical system standard where the same wire colors are used on all vehicles and in all years.
Bulbs and sockets designed so amber and clear bulbs are not interchangeable
Bulb quality such they may last 20 years before failure
Metric fasteners, metric gap measurements, etc.
The fact BMW are made to be Police bikes

Still

One of the things I find amusing is BMW owners who for some reason think BMW is the superior marque and they can do no wrong.

I remember back in the day I had a 77/7 with points, my cousin had electronic ignition in his cheaper Suzuki, I don't ever remember him having to mess with adjusting his ignition system in a hotel parking lot because his bike started pinging because the points wore out. Just one kink in the perfect BMW mystique. Despite the flaws of the early BMW bikes when compared to the Japanese bikes, I loved the low center of gravity, styling, luggage carrying capacity, handling, simplicity, and driveshaft of the BMW.

Frankly, I don't give a hoot about German culture unless it regards my family back ground. My independent American upbringing makes me desire to do my own maintenance as needed as well as my own repairs. I do not like being tied to a company for repairs I cannot make. I prefer to support an independent neighbor's repair shop than a boutique dealership. Or to have the choice to shop around to get repairs done so as to save money.

One of the things on my list of rants against BMW was closing down local small dealers to give us an experience in buying and service. Ha, the first thing the modern dealer told me was to buy a new bike, he was not interested in servicing my old one. Second thing he did was to change is labor rate for the shop to reflect his costs. Now he has retired and no one stepped into his shoes because who in their right mind would open a bMW dealership these days? That is another topic.

BMW then decided the next closest dealership was not building a new show room big enough and pulled the franchise. My nearest dealer is 200 miles away and I don't see any sign of one opening here anytime soon.
Regardless of it being German culture or not, BMW went off the tracks.

Face it, despite Henry Ford saying he wanted a car for the masses, he really wanted profit. BMW is no different, They design a unit to meet do what the customer wants, but, they also design the product to be built as cheap as possible, as fast as possible, then sell it for the most money they can get. Afterwards they want the unit to be serviced by their people again to keep profit under the company umbrella. Of course German rules are different and that is fine for the Germans, I don't like them as an American.

When I bought my BMW bikes, I had a dealer who cared about me charged a reasonable labor rate for repairs and to boot, was a friend. He was forced out of the business by the new BMW. What has the new BMW given me over the years? Nothing.

I am not German, I don't live there, maybe I have screwed up views of things. I acknowledge there are "mechanics" in the world who should not be allowed to pick up a wrench. I have repaired and seen first hand the damage they can do. I also know, I can do the same quality work as a factory trained mechanic. Training does not always equate to ability. In my years, I have seen trained people screw up just as bad or worse than untrained. I don't have formal mechanical training, I learned the hard way and made mistakes.

Since I am not an engineer, I don't look at things as engineers or bean counters do, I look at them as a consumer I am the one paying and to be honest, I want things made and done the way I want them. I also know, in the real world it is unlikely I will be 100% happy with any product.

I will close by saying, BMW built the last bike I have been interested in back in 84. I have been a BMW owner as long as I have been riding. Back in the day, Despite the flaws, BMW was my choice of bike to own and ride. I resent BMW now for the changes made at corporate level regardless of them being engineering related, market related or profit related. I hear so many stories about BMW wanting to increase the American sales, as well as BMW doesn't care about American sales, it goes a round and a round. It really is moot for me, I own the only BMW bike I will ever own and no matter what, BMW engineers don't always get it right, neither does it's marketing, or corporate leadership as far as I an American am concerned.

It is Monday morning, I am bored and stirring the pot. St.

STEVENRANKIN said:

I find myself cursing the many goofy ways things were designed on this motorcycle that make it a royal pain to work on but in all honesty made it faster and cheaper to assemble in the factory. After all, that is the real bottom line, design it so it goes together fast, with cheapest materials and sell for the most money.

St.

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You've got to be kidding.

What, I mean, WHAT on an Airhead is a royal pain to work on? The cylinders, heads, valves, carburetors are within 15 -30 min. of being completely dis-assembled.

The Starter? Right on top.

Even a shade tree mechanic can get the tranny out in less than an hour. Try that on an Oilhead.

Cheapest materials? Forged crankshaft, rods, are cheap? How about the hand painted pinstripes on an R90s?

Good grief..........

Taking thing apart

So, yes, taking an airhead apart is easy. I took my RT down to bare frame in about 8 hours. That is NOT my gripe, and yes, I am aware an Oil head is worse, I have seen the work involved in changing a clutch on one. Almost makes it a disposable bike because the parts and labor to do the job is almost as much as the bike was worth.

Now let me give a couple of examples. First, the one bottom bolt on the transmission, thank God I have a proper Allen wrench to get on it to tighten it. Another gripe is the two lower mounting bolts of the RT fairing. I am not in the garage right now swearing at one of the other examples and sorry, they don't come right to mind as I write this.

Now I will say, none of these are impossible to deal with otherwise, my bike would not be put back together, they are just scratch my head and bang it on the wall difficult spots which in the factory at assembly with jigs and robots may have been easy to work with but when doing repairs take forever.

Come on, it takes twenty minutes for BMW to build a bike from parts up, why in the world then does it take two hours to replace a clutch? Okay, that is a bad example, regardless, some engineer at BMW doesn't think about the people who have to work on the bikes later on, and the bean counters don't care either, it is not in their best interest to make things easy to work on, just design so they can make them fast and cheap to sell for the most money.

I love my bikes and that is the reason why I continue to restore them rather than discard them. But, BMW engineers don't always get it right and its the owner who pays one way or the other.

All the years which have passed since I bought my RT new, BMW has designed and build more and more complex bikes. Yes, I can see changes for the better in reliability, handling, emissions, power, and technology, but I also see a quantum leap in complexity and craziness making these wonder bikes a bigger pain to repair. BMW, doesn't want me to work on my own bikes, they really never have. Hey complex bikes keep the dealership mechanics employed. I have nothing against BMW mechanics. I just prefer to do my own repairs after the warranty is up.

I said somewhere in one of my posts, I don't read the other bike posts to know if anyone other than vintage or classic airhead owners do major overhauls and restorations on their bikes. Or, are they so reliable they run a 100K miles without anything but oil changes and tires? Watching my friend do a clutch job on an oil head really turned me off of anything newer than my bikes. St.