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Harley Cuts Workforce by 500 - Concentrates on Big, Expensive Models
- Thread starter exgman
- Start date
I’m not sure where skepticism comes in. The point is that those who think they are virtuous by moving to solar are misinformed, and the solar industry has its very own set of environmental problems just like the others you cited. And just like fossil fuels, wind, hydro, and nuclear.
As it turns out, converting one form of energy into another pretty much always comes at a cost. The out-of-pocket cost to consumers usually depends on how successfully the industry lobbies for “incentives”, exemptions, and for deferring down-stream liabilities. Right now the solar industry is doing very well with these.
As for what the majority of the population thinks, I would wager they think solar is “green” energy when it is actually far from it. When I see solar panels on rooftops, or worse in big solar farms, I don’t see green energy, I see toxic waste. Solar panels may be the next “asbestos” or “lead paint” for residential housing, and old panels may become a re-sale liability.
pglaves
#13338
If I actually believed this I would be forced to conclude that planet earth is doomed. If we can't reduce carbon emissions ...
But of course climate change is a hoax.
I happen to live in an area where outside the one town and two villages there are as many homes using solar systems as there are connected to the rural electric cooperative. The "grid" extends along one highway, one or two county roads, and a few short spurs in an area larger than Rhode Island. Many of these systems are 20 or more years old. People, over time, replace and upgrade batteries. People often add to, but seldom replace their older panels.
Jumping some geography, in the Taos New Mexico area the electric cooperative is actively pursuing solar energy to add to their other sources. They do so in a somewhat novel way, by encouraging customers to invest in solar by paying for a portion of large solar installations instead of in roof or ground mounted units at their homes. If I would pay for 1% of the panels in the farm I would be credited with 1% of the power generated, etc.
Presidio, Texas has not invested significantly in solar panels but has installed a huge battery installation to serve as city-wide backup power when the grid power goes out intermittently.
There are many ways to innovate without needing to build another Three Mile Island or Fukishima. Or the need to create any more huge coal ash disposal nightmares, coal mine disasters, natural gas flaring fiascos, or Exxon Valdez mishaps.
Next I will be hearing wind mills kill birds!
WE are all doomed!
I like what you said Paul.
Are you suggesting that windmills don’t kill birds? Are you another denier? I know a young woman whose college internship job this past summer was to drive the service road and hike the perimeters of a large ridgeline windfarm in Vermont. Her assignment was to count and collect the dead raptors. (The small birds get left behind.)
Like I said, everything comes with a price, fossil fuels, nuclear, hydro, wind, even solar. I probably use them all, but there is certainly nothing virtuous about the solar panels on our roof. Solar is having its day in the sun right now (haha) primarily due to successful lobbying for incentives a decade or so ago.
Eventually the bill will come due, just like it always does. The manufacturers will be gone or re-organized, and the cost will be borne by the public. But given the average age on this forum, most members won’t be around to help pay for it.
daveslash5
Member
Save the world?
That's an easy one... Just get rid of all the humans, the Earth will do fine! But for some reason, the nearly 7.8 billion humans don't want to go along with that.
Go figure.
That's an easy one... Just get rid of all the humans, the Earth will do fine! But for some reason, the nearly 7.8 billion humans don't want to go along with that.
Go figure.
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I don't see my self as virtuous!
I see myself as practical.
My investment in solar panels, heat pumps has paid for it self in 6 years. The next 10 or 20 will be free! Beyond this, as I'm a codger, if I sell my home, my realtor tells me the value of my house has gone up by about 50% on my solar investment.
I am saving about $1500per year in electric bills for power
In addition I am no longer burning 1000 to 1200 gallons of fuel oil each year to heat my house/hot water. Saving about $2,000 per year. Plus that is a real reduction in green house gasses.
Maybe I should be telling my wife this $3500/year is my money for a good motorcycle trip (on topic!!!). Do you think she will buy that??
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I believe some of the argument is that people believe solar or wind energy is green and non-polluting.
People forget that solar panels need to be manufactured and some of the materials that go into solar panel construction are not very "green". Same thing with wind generators, those huge fiberglass blades have a life span and need to be replaced, plus people don't consider the toxic chemicals and solvents used in construction of the blades. In our area they are replacing blades on wind generators and these blades get hauled to the local landfill and crushed and buried to live forever underground.
There is no free lunch.
How much pollution is created building a Toyota Prius compared to a gas powered car of similar size? Batteries are a nasty item to manufacture.
People forget that solar panels need to be manufactured and some of the materials that go into solar panel construction are not very "green". Same thing with wind generators, those huge fiberglass blades have a life span and need to be replaced, plus people don't consider the toxic chemicals and solvents used in construction of the blades. In our area they are replacing blades on wind generators and these blades get hauled to the local landfill and crushed and buried to live forever underground.
There is no free lunch.
How much pollution is created building a Toyota Prius compared to a gas powered car of similar size? Batteries are a nasty item to manufacture.
I like the way you think. Skim a little bit of that into your motorcycle slush fund each month, and it will add up quickly. She won‘t even notice.
Sounds like you have a good solar system there. Ours is much smaller and just charges a bank of 12 deep cycle batteries to provide very minimal electric (a few lights) but primarily to run the well pump. There is no heat or a/c, so power requirements are low.
weschmann
Kawa Afterthought
. Well said.
lee
Debbie's Servant
There's a big pile of old blades about 15 miles from us. No plan at this point on how to get rid of them.
The wind turbines going in near us have a life of 20 years. With hundreds of wind turbines near us that's going to be a huge pile of old blades in 10 to 20 years.
exgman
Active member
Looks like the old blades are a big problem indeed, Lee. See: https://www.wind-watch.org/news/202...ne-blades-are-pictured-piling-up-in-landfill/
That's an easy one... Just get rid of all the humans, the Earth will do fine! But for some reason, the nearly 7.8 billion humans don't want to go along with that.
Go figure.
I apologize in advance if this quote offends anyone, but... Not that George Carlin had a PHD in environmental engineering, but I thought this was an interesting quote:
"The planet isn’t going anywhere. We are! We’re goin’ away. Pack your sh.., Folks, we’re goin’ away. We won’t leave much of a trace either, thank god for that. Maybe a little styrofoam, maybe, little styrofoam. Planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake, an evolutionary cul de sac. The planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas, a surface nuisance. You wanna know how the planet’s doin’? Ask those people at Pompeii, who were frozen into position from volcanic ash. How the planet’s doin’. Wanna know if the planet’s alright, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia, or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. How about those people in Kilauea, Hawaii who built their homes right next to an active volcano and then wonder why they have lava in the living room. The planet will be here for a long, long, long time after we’re gone and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself ’cuz that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it’s true that plastic is not degradable well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allows us to be spawned from it in the first place: it wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it, needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old philosophical question, 'Why are we here? Plastic, as.......”
George Carlin
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azgman
Addicted to curves
We were having a discussion at work one day about this. Guys were going on how we are destroying the earth. I looked at them and say the same thing as Carlin. The earth will survive, we will just make it uninhabitable for us and we will be gone. Then in another 10,000 years the earth will self clean and it will become habitable again. If any humans or animals survive it they will flourish again and the cycle will start all over.
I can't help but wonder if this have not happened once already when they find ruins of cities that are way older than what we believe should be out there.
gregfeeler
Dances With Sheep
Likely not on a world-wide scale like we are facing now, but certainly plausible on a regional scale sufficient to disrupt food production, without which most civilizations collapse very quickly.
exgman
Active member
As the OP on this thread, I never imagined that it would go where it has gone. Nonetheless, I think it's great!
Just curious! Do you think that solar or wind is more polluting than burning coal, fuel oil, or natural gas that is extracted by fracking ( uncontrolled methane release and ground water pollution)?
No, but I don't have my head shoved all the way up my butt like many people do. Seriously, wind or solar is probably less polluting that those you mention, but we really don't know what the outcome of burying thousands of tons of scrap fiberglass, plus pollution from manufacturing more replacement blades. My point is there is pollution from every source of electricity generation, some people refuse to understand that.
A few years ago they were building Global Electric Motorcars in my area. (For those not familiar, they are just a glorified golf cart, with rechargeable batteries, for use on public roads) The company I worked for was doing some construction in the factory. One day during lunch a guy I worked with started raving about how great they were and everyone should own one. They would be great for running around town, plus they ran for free! I looked at him and said "Excuse me? Free?" "Yup, you just plug them in at home in the evening and recharge the batteries!" I went on to tell him he had to pay for the electricity to recharge the battery and he went on to tell me it was free because he was paying for electricity already. I asked him if he realized that the more electricity he used the larger his bill would be? I got the deer in the headlights look. This was a thirty year old, somewhat educated person. Probably the same guy that thinks wind power does not pollute.
Remember, these people vote!
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