Harley Cuts Workforce by 500 - Concentrates on Big, Expensive Models

PoorUB You have that right. I don't think theses people can think out of the box there in.

Looks like the new CEO’s plan to focus on reliving the past is being successful, at least as far as stockholders are concerned:

Harley-Davidson’s 25% Climb Is A Signal
Harley-Davidson’s stock jumped nearly 25% in the last 21 trading days, which significantly exceeded the S&P 500’s performance (up 4.5%). This move should not be ignored. For some, it might be an opportunity to book profits, but we view it as a signal that recovery is underway...

Read in Forbes: https://apple.news/A1xdvNzoETRG8WJce2lfm7w

Best,
DeVern

I have nothing to add here, except that the whole situation with HD’s recent decline these past several years has me feeling sad. I love the brand and besides my RT and old K75S, I liked my two HD Ultra Classics equally as much. HD has without question made a lot of mistakes along the way to bring them to this point. I hope that they can turn the ship around and manage to survive, but things are looking fairly bleak at the Motor Company and I will say that I do seriously question the new CEO’s strategy to raise prices while limiting dealer inventory in order to create consumer demand. Also, the fact that Sr Management has stated that the intent is to position HD as a “luxury brand” is laughable. They are already priced as a luxury brand as it is. If I were to buy a new Ultra Limited today which is the nearest comparison to my past two Ultra Classics, I’d have to spend approx $32,000. If I opted for the CVO version that would set me back $45,000. Can somebody explain to me what the MoCo is thinking by raising prices on what is already a premium based product?




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The limited supply and exclusive dealership business model works for some products. Rolex watches is the one that comes to my mind. Rolex refuses to make enough of their most popular watches such as the stainless steel Submariner. In order to purchase a Submariner you first have to purchase a less desirable model, and then you "qualify" to go on a waiting list for a Submariner. The most surprising thing is that this marketing tactic actually works for Rolex. There must be a certain percentage of the public that buys into this exclusivity and limited supply strategy. It sure ain't me, I run the other way the moment a salesperson brings up the concept of limited supply.

tangoalpha said:

They are already priced as a luxury brand as it is..........Can somebody explain to me what the MoCo is thinking by raising prices on what is already a premium based product?

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I can't. A constant theme from HD owners on Youtube videos decrying the demise of the brand is that they are way overpriced, and not worth buying. So, Harley's management says, "Let's raise the prices even higher, and everyone will start buying them again!" Well, I have to hand it to them for creative thinking.

Many of us remember when AMF took over Harley and it barley escaped going the way of Norton. The earth still kept turning. Harley won't die off now, not as long as a broad swath of American males continue to have a herd mentality, and their wonderful, childlike love of big, shiny objects stays the same. Ford, Chevy, and Dodge are making a fortune with thier huge, costly, very profitable trucks by successfully exploiting that same mentality.

jconway607 said:

I can't. A constant theme from HD owners on Youtube videos decrying the demise of the brand is that they are way overpriced, and not worth buying. So, Harley's management says, "Let's raise the prices even higher, and everyone will start buying them again!" Well, I have to hand it to them for creative thinking.

Many of us remember when AMF took over Harley and it barley escaped going the way of Norton. The earth still kept turning. Harley won't die off now, not as long as a broad swath of American males continue to have a herd mentality, and their wonderful, childlike love of big, shiny objects stays the same. Ford, Chevy, and Dodge are making a fortune with thier huge, costly, very profitable trucks by successfully exploiting that same mentality.

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Succinct and accurate. Its not a motorcycle - its a statement.

BC1100S said:

Succinct and accurate. Its not a motorcycle - its a statement.

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I wouldn't be that hard on the Harley riders. After all, aren't most motorcycle riders making some kind of a statement - intentionally or not - just by riding a bike, and another by the bike they choose? I don't think there are many people who actually ride their motorcycle who don't enjoy it, otherwise it's a lot of work to be a poser. For every cruiser rider who has invested many thousands into their bike of choice, and paint, and chrome, there's the BMW rider on the GS who thinks he, or she, is just being practical and investing in superior engineering. But, BMW is a prestige brand, and always has been. So, to the non-rider who sees you and the HD rider go by, they likely think you are both showing off.

I don't have a lot of friends who ride Harley's, but some, and I've met many on the road - way out serious cross country roads - and they have always been as devoted to their brand for the same reasons that most BMW riders are: style, engineering, perception of beauty, and functionality.

As for the new CEO's prestige brand plans, only time will tell. But, if I owned Harley stock, I'd be selling it.

GREGFEELER said:

I wouldn't be that hard on the Harley riders. After all, aren't most motorcycle riders making some kind of a statement - intentionally or not - just by riding a bike, and another by the bike they choose? I don't think there are many people who actually ride their motorcycle who don't enjoy it, otherwise it's a lot of work to be a poser. For every cruiser rider who has invested many thousands into their bike of choice, and paint, and chrome, there's the BMW rider on the GS who thinks he, or she, is just being practical and investing in superior engineering. But, BMW is a prestige brand, and always has been. So, to the non-rider who sees you and the HD rider go by, they likely think you are both showing off.

I don't have a lot of friends who ride Harley's, but some, and I've met many on the road - way out serious cross country roads - and they have always been as devoted to their brand for the same reasons that most BMW riders are: style, engineering, perception of beauty, and functionality.

As for the new CEO's prestige brand plans, only time will tell. But, if I owned Harley stock, I'd be selling it.

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I’m more in this camp. What else can they concentrate on other that what the think will work? They can’t go back to that rather cool 2-stroker they made way back when.
I think they have 50% of the market and don’t seem to mind their branding on anything their buyers want....... Even Club stuff.
OM

Omega Man said:

I’m more in this camp. What else can they concentrate on other that what the think will work? They can’t go back to that rather cool 2-stroker they made way back when.
I think they have 50% of the market and don’t seem to mind their branding on anything their buyers want....... Even Club stuff.
OM

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Harley does spread their logo around, but make no mistake - it's all very tightly controlled and licensed.

GREGFEELER said:

I wouldn't be that hard on the Harley riders.

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Virtually every Harley rider I have met while on the road has been what I term a "regular guy", someone with whom I can have a conversation. And virtually every Harley rider I see in an urban setting seems to be trying to create their own version of Sonny Barger. Extraorinarily loud pipes, very aggressive riding (and I don't mean speeding), a perma-sneer on their face, completely inappropriate riding gear with fraudulent DOT-stickered helmets - it gives all of us a bad rep in the eyes of the public. It may be different in the US and probably is. Personally speaking, excepting for the pain caused to emplyees and their families, I couldn't care less if Harley dried up and blew away.

A perfect illustration of the difference between Harley owners and Beemer riders can be witnessed by attending a brand-centric rally of each manufacturer.

GREGFEELER said:

Harley does spread their logo around, but make no mistake - it's all very tightly controlled and licensed.

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Hopefully you didn't miss my point.
OM

GREGFEELER said:

But, if I owned Harley stock, I'd be selling it.

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It seems lots of others feel the same way. On the other hand for every share for which there is a seller, there is also a buyer.

Omega Man said:

Hopefully you didn't miss my point.
OM

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Not at all. But, clearly, Harley and BMW have very different ideas about the best uses for their intellectual property, and in my experience, a large part of that is cultural: American vs. German. That's the major reason that the BMW clubs in north America became so upset with the new logo and branding requirements from BMW AG when they were imposed a few years ago. They were using the BMW roundel like Americas - on anything and everything as a sign of love and respect. The Germans want it venerated. I was President of the MOA at that time and spent 18 months "working" with AG, their lawyers, the BMW Car Club, the BMW RA, and the BMW Clubs International Council to get an agreement we could sign. It was very enlightening, to say the least.

PGlaves said:

It seems lots of others feel the same way. On the other hand for every share for which there is a seller, there is also a buyer.

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You can always buy short.

BC1100S said:

Virtually every Harley rider I have met while on the road has been what I term a "regular guy", someone with whom I can have a conversation. And virtually every Harley rider I see in an urban setting seems to be trying to create their own version of Sonny Barger. Extraorinarily loud pipes, very aggressive riding (and I don't mean speeding), a perma-sneer on their face, completely inappropriate riding gear with fraudulent DOT-stickered helmets - it gives all of us a bad rep in the eyes of the public. It may be different in the US and probably is. Personally speaking, excepting for the pain caused to emplyees and their families, I couldn't care less if Harley dried up and blew away.

A perfect illustration of the difference between Harley owners and Beemer riders can be witnessed by attending a brand-centric rally of each manufacturer.

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Yes, there are some big differences in bike culture. And I don't appreciate the obnoxiously loud bikes at all. But I am looking at a bigger picture.

In my opinion, informed by a lot of research into motorcycle sales and rider data and trends, if Harley "dries up and blows away", a lot of other motorcycle companies will suffer as well. There are many reasons, but in simple terms, the vast sales of Harley bikes creates a vast amount of "inertia" and "presence" for motorcycles. There are literally millions of Harley riders on the roads of the world, and by sheer numbers, they reinenfoce the validity of and right of motorcycles to share the roads with other vehicles. In my considered opinion, it is regulation and new "safe" highway designs which are the biggest threats to the future of motorcycling - not the lack of riders. Motorcycle riding has swung wildly in popularity over the last 100 years, but when it got popular again, there were bikes to ride. If motorcycles are regulated out of existence there's no coming back from that. Every bike on the road is a vote to keep bikes around. Whatever they be.

GREGFEELER said:

If motorcycles are regulated out of existence there's no coming back from that. Every bike on the road is a vote to keep bikes around. Whatever they be.

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Yes!
I hope all that read this give this some real thought.
Reminds me of-
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately". Ben Franklin

OM

GREGFEELER said:

Yes, there are some big differences in bike culture. And I don't appreciate the obnoxiously loud bikes at all. But I am looking at a bigger picture.

In my opinion, informed by a lot of research into motorcycle sales and rider data and trends, if Harley "dries up and blows away", a lot of other motorcycle companies will suffer as well. There are many reasons, but in simple terms, the vast sales of Harley bikes creates a vast amount of "inertia" and "presence" for motorcycles. There are literally millions of Harley riders on the roads of the world, and by sheer numbers, they reinenfoce the validity of and right of motorcycles to share the roads with other vehicles. In my considered opinion, it is regulation and new "safe" highway designs which are the biggest threats to the future of motorcycling - not the lack of riders. Motorcycle riding has swung wildly in popularity over the last 100 years, but when it got popular again, there were bikes to ride. If motorcycles are regulated out of existence there's no coming back from that. Every bike on the road is a vote to keep bikes around. Whatever they be.

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Well, I guess one can take the viewpoint that if Harley goes, we all go (I know you didn't say that) but I think that's an oversimplification of human behaviour. If Harley dries up and blows away I'm sure at least a large percentage of their riders will look to BMW, Honda, Ducati, Yamaha, Aprilia, Suzuki, Indian and Kawasaki for replacement units. Unless, of course, those same riders have an "if it ain't a Harley, it ain't sh*t" attitude (which I know some do).

Good exchange, by the way.

Omega Man said:

Yes!
I hope all that read this give this some real thought.
Reminds me of-
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately". Ben Franklin

OM

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Well said.

There is a huge amount of touring Harley riders that just like to ride. Probably little difference from the BMW touring riders. I ride with a bunch that will ride 500 miles round trip in a day, just for lunch.

I do get a kick out of it. I see many of the same similarities in BMW riders as I see in Harley riders. Brand faithful, talk about mods, exhaust, seats and lighting. Some ride across town, some ride across the USA.

There is the tough as nails, 1%'er types that mostly ride Harleys. I have seen a few on BMWs too.

I went on a Harley ride out to Red Lodge MT. One guy I knew finally showed up. I jokingly asked him what took so long. He left Fargo Saturday AM, rode out to California, up Highway 1 and back to Red Lodge, the long way, plus some side adventures. He had put on 5,000 miles in seven days to get to Red Lodge.

BC1100S said:

Well, I guess one can take the viewpoint that if Harley goes, we all go (I know you didn't say that) but I think that's an oversimplification of human behaviour. If Harley dries up and blows away I'm sure at least a large percentage of their riders will look to BMW, Honda, Ducati, Yamaha, Aprilia, Suzuki, Indian and Kawasaki for replacement units. Unless, of course, those same riders have an "if it ain't a Harley, it ain't sh*t" attitude (which I know some do).

Good exchange, by the way.

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Let me ask you, if BMW style bikes (RT, RS, GS - which would include all similar competitive brands/models) were to go away, leaving you only a cruiser style, low to the ground, V-twin, shake-rattle-and roll bike to ride - would you? And if you did, of all the other BMW riders you know, how many of them would? Or would you or they just hang up your helmets? I've thought about this, and I'm not sure if I could make the transition. It's not that I hate cruisers, it's just that they are so different from what I love about the bikes I ride, I'm not sure if they would give me the same reward. I will suggest that could well be the situation for many of the millions of riders who have always ridden a cruiser and can't image not doing so.

That being said, you are right in a couple of things. First, *if* Harley closed shop, the other metric cruiser bike vendors would try to fill that gap, but other than Indian (Polaris) I think they would only see modest sales increases. They have been competing with Harley for decades, at thousands of dollars less, and they haven't made a dent in Harley's sales. Much like the Japanese "GS's" haven't knocked the BMW GS off it's perch. Secondly, if Harley started to really falter, someone would buy them up. The market value of the Harley brand is worth billions, not to mention the actual bike sales, parts, and service.

My real point here is to try and look at something though the other person's eyes and realize that "you" may look just as weird to them as they do to you, and in that, we're much the same.

Yes - excellent discussion! If we were at a camp fire I would be offering you anther beer about this time.