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60,000 mile valve adjust intervals?

1957mpd said:
This will be welcome news for Ducati riders. One of the downsides of the brand historically, at least with the twins, was the req'd frequency of and difficulty of performing valve adjustments and the cost of paying the shop techs for the service.
Click to expand...

My 1995 Ducati 916 has a 3K mile valve inspection interval. Belts are serviced at 6K.

Desmodromic valve actuation means that it has a rocker to open the valve, and another to close it, which is nifty. I need to buy some tools, but the nifty part is that when you remove the belts, you can twirl the cams in the head to measure lash. It's a race bike, so it takes less than 5 min to strip it, another 5 to get the belt covers and belts off and then we're ready to pull the valve adjustment covers.

I'll need to buy a few tools to do the measurements, including a little gizmo to facilitate measuring lash on the closers, along with shims, but when the local Ducati independent shop wants $1750 to do it, I'm happy to learn how.

Also, if I recall correctly, the valve clearance inspection isn't 60K miles, but 60K kilometers, so maybe take the first post with a bit of a grain of salt, as it doesn't mention oil change intervals at all.

Here's some actual information: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2020...ve-60000-km-73000-mile-maintenance-intervals/
 
PGlaves said:
So what "technology" permits one engine to need an oil change at 15K miles and another engine to need an oil change at 6K miles, or 3K miles? How does the construction of an engine accomplish this?
Click to expand...

Here's my take ...

BMW ... especially with so much ownership in the hands of one family ... is an extremely legal liability conscious company.

Motorcycles are dangerous. Apples/oranges compared to cars.

In order that BMW motorcycles be inspected as often as possible, extremely short service intervals are specified. The very fact this is on the record can be seen to absolve some liability.

It's also why up to the Wetheads, BMW were about the only company permitting non synthetic motor oil. I couldn't comment on oil change intervals related to wet clutches and shared oil with a transmission, but I'd guess it could be shorter intervals than previous BMW and of course cars. It's certainly synthetic only.

My little cheap 2001 Porsche Boxster has 15,000 mile motor oil change intervals and 75,000 mile transaxle fluid changes.

BMW tried lifetime gear oils, but their genius motorcycle customers wouldn't have it and marketing overruled engineering. It's still the spec for their cars even if the USA car club tech guy objects. He's a mechanic, not an engineer.
 
stooie said:
Here's a few of my thoughts:

1. In addition to the improved piston and piston ring materials that Dieselyoda mentioned manufacturing tolerances are tighter than in olden days. Combined this leads to less blow-by of combustion gasses and thus less contamination of the oil.

2. The change from carburetors to fuel injection and improving fuel injection mapping results in less gas washing past the pistons, particularly on cold start up. Again, less oil contamination.

3. The use of synthetic oils and improved refining techniques of mineral oil reduce the amount of Viscosity Index Improvers (VII) required for an oil to meet specifications. To over generalize, oil doesn't wear out but VIIs do. They are long polymers that over time get chopped up as they pass through the oil pump, reducing their effectiveness. The viscosity of modern oils thus doesn't degrade as quickly as older oils used to.

4. I frequently send my used oil for lab analysis. I don't push oil replacement intervals but the lab analysis always indicates that I could go longer. In particular, the Total Base Number (TBN) after a year is usually excellent indicting that changing oil at a low mileage based on the 1-year requirement may not be necessary.
Click to expand...

Good points. IMO, anyone changing synthetic oil in a modern fuel injected engine at less than 5,000 miles is foolish, unless the use dictates it. Actually running off road, short trips and the like might require shorted oil change intervals. Long trips on the highway, run it to 7,500 miles!

A good friend of mine changed oil on his Harley every 3,000 miles, running synthetic. I kept telling him he could go 5,000 miles easily, and probably more. We went on a trip together and he told me he had to change oil before we left, I told him to run it and change when we got back, (about a 1,500 mile trip). He changed it, and the day we left he asked my when I changed oil last, "About 5,000 miles ago" I replied. He is very OCD and he kept telling me during the trip, "I can't believe you didn't change the oil before the trip!" I changed it when we got back and sent a sample to Blackstone, they said to run it another 2,500 miles and send in another sample!

He changes every 5,000 miles now.
 
kbasa said:
My 1995 Ducati 916 has a 3K mile valve inspection interval. Belts are serviced at 6K.

Desmodromic valve actuation means that it has a rocker to open the valve, and another to close it, which is nifty. I need to buy some tools, but the nifty part is that when you remove the belts, you can twirl the cams in the head to measure lash. It's a race bike, so it takes less than 5 min to strip it, another 5 to get the belt covers and belts off and then we're ready to pull the valve adjustment covers.

I'll need to buy a few tools to do the measurements, including a little gizmo to facilitate measuring lash on the closers, along with shims, but when the local Ducati independent shop wants $1750 to do it, I'm happy to learn how.
Click to expand...

I've put about 100k miles on Ducatis. Both 2 valve and 4 valve units; the last one being a Testastretta. After the initial couple of checks you'll find that the valves rarely go out of adjustment as long as you use the bike as it was intended and not cruising city streets in traffic going from Starbucks to Starbucks.

And I never paid more than $600 for a full service/valve check. You need to find a different independent shop.
 
PGlaves said:
So that is now a cheap or inexpensive valve check and adjustment? Since when?
Click to expand...

My 999S which I sold 3 weeks ago was an '05. Had to actually adjust the valves once at the first service. Checked them every 10k and all were always in spec. Took about 30 minutes to get access to the heads including removing the rad so the coolant got changed regularly as well. Peeling the bodywork off that bike took all of 5 minutes with 4 dzus fasteners and 6 bolts.

I also had an air cooled 2-valve 750SS (a '92) and a 2-valve 900SL (also a '92). Dead simple to gain access to those valves (no radiator) with usually the same result - all in spec.
 
PoorUB said:
Good points. IMO, anyone changing synthetic oil in a modern fuel injected engine at less than 5,000 miles is foolish, unless the use dictates it. Actually running off road, short trips and the like might require shorted oil change intervals. Long trips on the highway, run it to 7,500 miles!
Click to expand...

Wet clutch vs dry clutch makes a difference. My previous bike (Suzuki SV650) would run fine past 4000 miles, but started to shift funky beyond 3500 or so. So I would change oil at 3000, and filter every other oil change. (Sold it with the original clutch, no issues with the clutch, with over 80k miles. The new owner is enjoying it.)
 
Hydraulic Adjusters?

I'm still disappointed that motorcycles have not shifted to hydraulic valve adjustment by now. I see the argument against it for something like a 600cc race bike turning 15,000+RPM, where the check valves may not be able to keep up, but in an average bike with a 9500rpm redline, a hydraulic system like what Honda used in its air-cooled DOHC 4-cylinder from 1982 to 2003 could be refined and adapted to basically any OHC setup.
 
RIDERR1150GSADV said:
Ask BMW owners with the VANOS system how their prolonged oil service interval worked out for them using that crappy Mobil1 oil from the factory....:deal
Plenty of times we heard lifetime oil in gearboxes and transmissions (CVT) only to find out later that it leads to premature wear and the manufactures changed the intervals back to normal... YMMV
Click to expand...

My wife and I have had at least 6 BMW with Vanos. I had a sensor fail on my 98 328, but that's about if for problems. We buy them used and run them for high mileage.
 
patgm said:
I'm still disappointed that motorcycles have not shifted to hydraulic valve adjustment by now. I see the argument against it for something like a 600cc race bike turning 15,000+RPM, where the check valves may not be able to keep up, but in an average bike with a 9500rpm redline, a hydraulic system like what Honda used in its air-cooled DOHC 4-cylinder from 1982 to 2003 could be refined and adapted to basically any OHC setup.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. It doesn't seem like that's pushing technology at all.
 
Hydraulic valve lifters tend to have inefficiencies that can contribute to performance/fuel economy loss.

Higher sump volumes, crankcase/tranny/final drive/hydraulic tend to increase drain intervals but filtration can be a weak link.

I believe a lot of this is driven by the lack of skilled mechanics, or rather, the lack of skilled trades entering the work force. After all, you can make $80K/yr writing code for Google at home or $80k/yr unplugging toilets. Which sounds like a good way to earn a living?

Anybody own a vehicle other than a piece of HD equipment/truck that still requires a grease gun on it every recommended service interval? Anybody know how or needs to properly repack a hub bearing?

Caterpillar's latest service bulletin reminds all new engine owners that a first service interval of 50 must be completed and documented.

I wonder if that's because QC failure at a major engine manufacturer has resulted in hundred of dropped valves and $M's of warranty costs.
 
dieselyoda said:
Hydraulic valve lifters tend to have inefficiencies that can contribute to performance/fuel economy loss.

Higher sump volumes, crankcase/tranny/final drive/hydraulic tend to increase drain intervals but filtration can be a weak link.

I believe a lot of this is driven by the lack of skilled mechanics, or rather, the lack of skilled trades entering the work force. After all, you can make $80K/yr writing code for Google at home or $80k/yr unplugging toilets. Which sounds like a good way to earn a living?

Anybody own a vehicle other than a piece of HD equipment/truck that still requires a grease gun on it every recommended service interval? Anybody know how or needs to properly repack a hub bearing?

Caterpillar's latest service bulletin reminds all new engine owners that a first service interval of 50 must be completed and documented.

I wonder if that's because QC failure at a major engine manufacturer has resulted in hundred of dropped valves and $M's of warranty costs.
Click to expand...

They make more than that. My son in law is 25 and is a senior software engineer at a gaming company and he makes 230k a year. It's nuts. I make a fraction of that...
 
dieselyoda said:
Hydraulic valve lifters tend to have inefficiencies that can contribute to performance/fuel economy loss.

Higher sump volumes, crankcase/tranny/final drive/hydraulic tend to increase drain intervals but filtration can be a weak link.
Click to expand...

I don't think I quite buy the performance/fuel economy argument, Euro5 engines already have oil jets to cool the pistons so the oil pump already needs to produce a similar amount of pressure. Hydraulic lifters would use a similar size and pressure passage, the additional plumbing would make a negligible difference in engine output, and would require similar filtration to other small oil passages.
 
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