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NAV VI Discontinued

Sure, if you want to spend the money. I just received a map update notice for my pickup, for which the vendor wants $149. I played that game once, only to discover that the maps were still incomplete or inaccurate compared to my Garmin or to Google Maps. For $149 I can buy a Garmin unit that comes with lifetime maps. So on a lot of vehicles updating the built-in Nav system is a losing proposition; you’re better off spending your money making sure your next vehicle comes with Car Play or Android Auto, or acquiring a decent Garmin unit.

Best,
DeVern

:dunno
If the Subaru in question has never been updated, the owner may think it’s “crap”.

I recently had a discussion with someone upset with their never updated, 12 year old Magellan’s performance. :hungover

All these electronic devices need updating right out of the box. Some of the updates are good, some not so much.

Here in Mass, the state is moving towards exit numbers that correspond to mileage numbers. My guess is a couple of years before NAV unit’s completely catch up with all that.

OM
 
Sure, if you want to spend the money. I just received a map update notice for my pickup, for which the vendor wants $149.
Best,
DeVern

My Chevy is three years old and I just did my first map udate for $100. There was some major street changes in the Des Moines area and I wanted new maps for that.
I'll probably wait 4 or 5 years before I do another map update.

My car has Android Auto but the phone needs to be plugged in and I'm too lazy to do that :)
 
...The assumption that a Cell phone GPS capabilities is equal to a dedicated unit like Garmin is false...

Maybe it isn't as good, but I have found it to be plenty good. I did an offroad event in Baja in 2019, and for navigation we almost exclusively used an iPad which had no data plan and therefore relied on GPS only. The winner of the motorcycle category used the same setup. Functionality was really, really good. For some stuff we needed to know where we were to within a meter or two or keep a real-time track of average speed, and we aced all of that stuff with the iPad. I didn't compare it to my phone for ability, to see if the iPad maybe had a larger antenna and worked better, but I can do that locally.

My favorite nav app is Gaia GPS. That's what we mostly used in Baja, although we did switch too Google Maps every now and then for different imagery (all of it downloaded, of course, because there was no cell reception at all).
 
Wow, I thought that was done nationwide years ago.

We are on the forward edge of the trailing edge of highway travel marking. I feel bad for out of staters when they transition from 95N to 128/93/95 with north in two directions. :hungover
OM
 
Adventure?

From the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary:
Adventure:an undertaking usually involving danger and unknown risks.

On today's roads and highways we do have still have "danger" in the form of crazed or distracted drivers and "unknown risk" in what may lie around the curve or the condition of the next stretch of never ridden trail, but I wonder how often our technology insulates the rider from true Adventure. Perhaps it is easier and more comforting to follow a route that you know will get you from Point A to point B, but how much of the soul of Adventure is lost in this comfort? How many times have our mistakes and errors led to discovering a new place, meeting someone new when you stop to ask a question or even the excitement in learning of something that you did not even know exists?

After recieving my 2018 R1200GS Rallye, I removed my Nav VI and mount. I found that I did not like the clutter and distraction of both the TFT and GPS and find the view of the road and cockpit to be much cleaner without the GPS. I put a road atlas in my panniers along with an orange highlighter to mark roads and highways that I have ridden, but if I need to know which direction to go I can stop and check the map. I have stopped to ask "Which way is Highway xxx?" and although some may think such an act is a defeat of their ego, I have usually had a good time meeting and talking to someone new, spread the BMW gospel and even getting a local shortcut through some interesting back country. Thus one finds Adventure.

For Adventure, try to simplify, remove the cushions of technology, slow down and experiance the new. Your trip can be Adventure or just Travel, the choice is always yours.

Enjoy the Ride.
 
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From the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary:
Adventure:an undertaking usually involving danger and unknown risks.

On today's roads and highways we do have still have "danger" in the form of crazed or distracted drivers and "unknown risk" in what may lie around the curve or the condition of the next stretch of never ridden trail, but I wonder how often our technology insulates the rider from true Adventure. Perhaps it is easier and more comforting to follow a route that you know will get you from Point A to point B, but how much of the soul of Adventure is lost in this comfort? How many times have our mistakes and errors led to discovering a new place, meeting someone new when you stop to ask a question or even the excitement in learning of something that you did not even know exists?

After recieving my 2018 R1200GS Rallye, I removed my Nav VI and mount. I found that I did not like the clutter and distraction of both the TFT and GPS and find the view of the road and cockpit to be much cleaner without the GPS. I put a road atlas in my panniers along with an orange highlighter to mark roads and highways that I have ridden, but if I need to know which direction to go I can stop and check the map. I have stopped asked "Which way is Highway xxx?" although some may think such an act is a defeat of their ego, I have usually had a good time meeting and talking to someone new, spread the BMW gospel and even getting a local shortcut through some interesting back country. Thus one finds Adventure.

For Adventure, try to simplify, remove the cushions of technology, slow down and experiance the new. Your trip can be Adventure or just Travel, the choice is always yours.

Enjoy the Ride.

A good description of the joy of wandering, not the planning, just enjoying the road, the view, the smell. Who know what you will find, maybe an adventure but certainly something unexpected
 
Cell phone coverage in the US is much more problematic. Clearly the highly populated areas have good coverage, the cell companies have done a good job of having pretty seamless coverage along the interstates and most traveled highways and well populated areas. But in many states, in in my state hilly Vermont in particular once you are off these major roads you cell coverage is much less likely. Here the cell companies claim coverage to about 95% of the people (this is disputed) but freely acknowledge that around 75% of the state land area does not have coverage.

The assumption that a Cell phone GPS capabilities is equal to a dedicated unit like Garmin is false.
The cell phone packaging does not allow equal antenna capability. This is most important as good signal strength from multiple satellites is critical for accurate location. Yes the cell phone "fuse data" from cell tower location to augment this shortfall, but again if it is only in contact with one cell tower does not mean much. A down loaded map looks nice but you do not know where you are! While I do not know specifically it is not clear to me that cell phone GPS imbedded reciever and algorithms are equal or let alone better that those units like Garmin. Note a significant portion of Garmin's business is now Aircraft navigation and instrumentation, Military GPS applications (much more accurate technology), ship board, etc.

Yes I much prefer Google maps for its great and constantly upgraded data base beyond physical location and I use this for planning, finding gas, points of interest, rooms often. However, when I'm riding, wandering new roads, figuring which way to turn next I find I need a real dedicated GPS.

I do not see the need for real GPS to be going away for riders like me.

ps I find that a GS rider, an adventure rider, that does not need a real GPS a bit of an oxymoron!

ps The map data base of my subaru (clearly to Garmin) is crap in rural areas

A dedicated motorcycle GPS can have some advantages over a smartphone, typically being more rugged, easier to use with gloves, and more waterproof. But a modern smartphone GPS receiver can be its equal or superior when it comes to determining your location. Cellular service makes no difference when using a smartphone as a GPS device if you have the map data stored on the phone, just as a Nav stores the map internally. A good signal from multiple satellites is indeed essential for accuracy, but that is not a problem for a smartphone. The "packaging" is not really a factor in reception - the phones are bit smaller, but I've had three GPS units apart, and they all had a lot of empty space.

Looking around the house, I see that we have several devices with GPS receivers:
TomTom GO730, circa 2009, receives signals from the U.S. GPS satellites.
Samsung Galaxy S2, 2011, also uses GPS satellites.
Garmin Zumo 590, 2014, uses GPS satellites.
Samsung Galaxy S7, 2016, uses GPS plus Russian GLONASS satellites.
Samsung Galaxy S10, 2019, uses GPS, GLONASS, plus European Galileo satellites.

A BMW Nav 5 is equivalent to the Zumo 590 or 595, using GPS only. A Nav 6 can also receive GLONASS signals. The Zumo XT is the only motorcycle GPS I can find that can use GPS, GLONASS and Galileo signals.

I took all my devices out on my front porch to see if I could see any differences. It's raining, so I (mostly) stayed under cover, and the porch roof and house undoubtedly blocked some satellites. I turned off wi-fi and cellular service on the phones, so they were using only their GPS receivers.

The automotive TomTom used 7 of 11 satellites to determine its position, it does not indicate accuracy.
The ancient S2 phone used 4 of 7 satellites, for the worst accuracy of 32 feet. (Taking it away from the house improved accuracy to 12 feet, using 8 of 11 satellites)
The 590 used 8 of 13 satellites for a claimed accuracy of 11 feet.
The S7 phone picked up 12 of 21 satellites for 9 foot accuracy, using GLONASS.
The S10 phone used 24 of 30 satellites for 9 foot accuracy, using GLONASS and Galileo.

I've seen accuracy of 6 feet on the S7 in open areas. I think the accuracy of all the devices is adequate for vehicle navigation. If you are within 15 feet of your route, you should be able to see where to go.

I used the S2 (the "worst" of these) on the motorcycle for a year or so, the GPS capability was fine, and I had a choice of apps for navigation. It always knew my location. It was replaced with a dedicated motorcycle GPS only because the USB power connection could not survive motorcycle vibrations, I was tired of needing a stylus for the non-glove-friendly screen, and my favorite CoPilot app was "upgraded" by a new owner into a piece of garbage.
 
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It always knew my location. It was replaced with a dedicated motorcycle GPS only because the USB power connection could not survive motorcycle vibrations, I was tired of needing a stylus for the non-glove-friendly screen, and my favorite CoPilot app was "upgraded" by a new owner into a piece of garbage.

I am curious about the trip planning, waypoint setting, and routing capabilities of the phone applications, particularly in the many vast areas here in the west with no cell phone coverage. I have always used a dedicated vehicular GPS for all of these.

For example, over 20 or so years I have accumulated about 400 personal waypoints. I have them stored both in my computer and several GPS units. They are stored as "favorites" and I can call up any one and route to it with no hassle. I can string several together using via points without actually having to build a route. I am curious how a phone app can accommodate my collected waypoints.

I hear that I don't need cell coverage because the phone gets a GPS signal from satellites, and I can pre-load the map. How much map can a phone hold compared to, for example detailed street level mapping of all of North America in my Garmin units?
 
A good description of the joy of wandering, not the planning, just enjoying the road, the view, the smell. Who know what you will find, maybe an adventure but certainly something unexpected

You've got that right vtbob. Great post!
 
Unfortunately, BMW is very slow to learn what riders want when it comes to information and communications systems.

Yeah it's funny, because they're so on the leading edge of the really important stuff (ABS, traction, suspension) yet when it comes to accessories they can be comically outdated. I remember around 2012 they released a 30-pin iPod connection for the cars... right about time the Lightning cable came along and the 30-pin connector became obsolete.
 
A dedicated motorcycle GPS can have some advantages over a smartphone, typically being more rugged, easier to use with gloves, and more waterproof. But a modern smartphone GPS receiver can be its equal or superior when it comes to determining your location. Cellular service makes no difference when using a smartphone as a GPS device if you have the map data stored on the phone, just as a Nav stores the map internally. A good signal from multiple satellites is indeed essential for accuracy, but that is not a problem for a smartphone. The "packaging" is not really a factor in reception - the phones are bit smaller, but I've had three GPS units apart, and they all had a lot of empty space.

Looking around the house, I see that we have several devices with GPS receivers:
TomTom GO730, circa 2009, receives signals from the U.S. GPS satellites.
Samsung Galaxy S2, 2011, also uses GPS satellites.
Garmin Zumo 590, 2014, uses GPS satellites.
Samsung Galaxy S7, 2016, uses GPS plus Russian GLONASS satellites.
Samsung Galaxy S10, 2019, uses GPS, GLONASS, plus European Galileo satellites.

A BMW Nav 5 is equivalent to the Zumo 590 or 595, using GPS only. A Nav 6 can also receive GLONASS signals. The Zumo XT is the only motorcycle GPS I can find that can use GPS, GLONASS and Galileo signals.


I took all my devices out on my front porch to see if I could see any differences. It's raining, so I (mostly) stayed under cover, and the porch roof and house undoubtedly blocked some satellites. I turned off wi-fi and cellular service on the phones, so they were using only their GPS receivers.

The automotive TomTom used 7 of 11 satellites to determine its position, it does not indicate accuracy.
The ancient S2 phone used 4 of 7 satellites, for the worst accuracy of 32 feet. (Taking it away from the house improved accuracy to 12 feet, using 8 of 11 satellites)
The 590 used 8 of 13 satellites for a claimed accuracy of 11 feet.
The S7 phone picked up 12 of 21 satellites for 9 foot accuracy, using GLONASS.
The S10 phone used 24 of 30 satellites for 9 foot accuracy, using GLONASS and Galileo.

I've seen accuracy of 6 feet on the S7 in open areas. I think the accuracy of all the devices is adequate for vehicle navigation. If you are within 15 feet of your route, you should be able to see where to go.

I used the S2 (the "worst" of these) on the motorcycle for a year or so, the GPS capability was fine, and I had a choice of apps for navigation. It always knew my location. It was replaced with a dedicated motorcycle GPS only because the USB power connection could not survive motorcycle vibrations, I was tired of needing a stylus for the non-glove-friendly screen, and my favorite CoPilot app was "upgraded" by a new owner into a piece of garbage.

While this is surprising to me and being an old codger remain a bit skeptical, this would imply a BMW TFT tied to a cell phone would only need the full US/Europe/other map data downloader permanently to equal the Nav V or VI. Memory is so cheap this should be expected in the BMW TFT.

Thinking Along these line why wouldn't BMW buy the GPS chip and algorithms from some one a prove a complete GPS functionality??? maybe $100.

If they added an embedded cell function like so many cars have, all the other data that we all enjoy from google maps could auto updated and available too. We would just have to pay a cell fee.

Thinking a bit further why not have the BMW TFT have the GPS with full embedded map data and a link to our Cell phone so we could fully update that data base when ever we linked the cell phone to the TFT....thus avoiding the cost of a separate cell phone subscription.

Does any auto company offer this last option. Doing away with the need for pesky annual map updates and we would always the most current info on points of interest, lodging, gad, resturant , etc

Just thinking
 
I am curious how a phone app can accommodate my collected waypoints.

In the case of Gaia, you can import those waypoints from GPX. Every morning of the Baja event, the organizers would publish the day's waypoints in a GPX file via a mobile hotspot. I would log on, download and import the GPX, and bingo... there they all were in Gaia. I would save every day's waypoints and routes in a separate folder.

You need a paid subscription to use offline maps, but it's not very expensive. With your account you can do your routing work on the web if you want and the work you do will sync to your device (and vice versa). There are a LOT of maps to choose from. I downloaded satellite imagery for the entire peninsula at Z=16 for this event; it took something like 70 GB of storage. You can use Google Roads maps, NatGeo, ESRI, USGS, and lots more. The app was designed for hikers originally so there is a heavy emphasis on wilderness maps.

Gaia (and most apps as far as I know) will not do actual routing in the device itself, so if you want to create a turn-by-turn route you need to be online so the app can push that work up to the server. In Baja this was not an option so I just line-drew the routes and it was good enough. If you are not online, the map is nothing but a picture... the routable layer isn't there. Which isn't an issue at all unless you want to re-route on the fly. And if you're out of cell coverage, you probably are not relying on on-the-fly GPS rerouting. You still have a map and your location; that's with you all the time.

Where I would want to have on-the-fly rerouting is in a city, and of course you will be online then. Google Maps, Apple Maps, anything will work in a city.

If you scroll down to post 23 in this thread you will see some examples of how we used GAIA in Baja.
 
Thinking a bit further why not have the BMW TFT have the GPS with full embedded map data and a link to our Cell phone so we could fully update that data base when ever we linked the cell phone to the TFT....thus avoiding the cost of a separate cell phone subscription.

In a way, that's how we were in Baja... with a GPS device (tablet) without data. Loading the maps in bursts takes some planning, which definitely has a learning curve. We went into Baja with the expectation of no internet for two weeks, and that was pretty accurate. And planning for that trip would have consumed about two years' worth of my whole family's data plan. The concept you describe could burn a lot of data.

But let me say now, the detail we had was absolutely unsurpassed. We could more or less see every tree and goat path in Baja. No way on earth would we have gotten that with any conventional GPS solution.

Downloading maps takes getting used to. If you are planning a route online (and online means at a computer on the web, on a device on WiFi, on a device on data) using Gaia, it can download all of the map tiles needed to cover your route if you don't already have them. We didn't know where we would be but we did know that it could be anywhere, and since the "roads" were only identifiable visually (no way were these cow trails in a routable layer anywhere) we needed imagery for everywhere. That took many evenings, since there are limits on the number of tiles per download. In normal life, I only have a few maps saved which cover the county surrounding me (I drive a school bus sometimes and pre-drive the route on Gaia when possible). You do this the same way you do in Google Maps; by selecting an area and saving it. With Google they expire but with Gaia they don't (until your subscription expires).

And it's frustrating to be out there and run off the end of a map, after you spent a lot of time prepping. A typical mistake for me is going into an area where I have only saved to a lower zoom level, so the street I am looking for as a turnaround doesn't have a label. You need to figure out what zoom level you want. Better zoom gives more detail, but smaller letters (depending on how the app displays the tiles) and more storage. With Google Maps I usually don't go all the way in, because I'd rather have a blown-up grainy map with larger letters on it than more detail with 1/32" letters.
 
I am curious about the trip planning, waypoint setting, and routing capabilities of the phone applications, particularly in the many vast areas here in the west with no cell phone coverage. I have always used a dedicated vehicular GPS for all of these.

For example, over 20 or so years I have accumulated about 400 personal waypoints. I have them stored both in my computer and several GPS units. They are stored as "favorites" and I can call up any one and route to it with no hassle. I can string several together using via points without actually having to build a route. I am curious how a phone app can accommodate my collected waypoints.

I hear that I don't need cell coverage because the phone gets a GPS signal from satellites, and I can pre-load the map. How much map can a phone hold compared to, for example detailed street level mapping of all of North America in my Garmin units?

Specific answers to these questions depend on the app and phone you are using, but in general terms, a smartphone has much more storage capacity than a Garmin. Many of the apps can import .gpx files with tracks, points and routes, so anything you might have stored in Basecamp can be transferred via USB, email, Dropbox, or wifi. I have about 20,000 points stored on my phone, plus many more restaurants, hotels, gas stations, etc that come embedded some of the maps. I have my POI organized into folders (Parks, campgrounds, "pure" gas, nature preserves, misc) and I can hide or display any or all, and navigate to them. Some apps can use multiple maps, so you can change from a road map to a topographic map, or overlay one on the other. Details on the maps can vary also, but some of the free OpenStreetMaps (also available for Garmin) not only show minor roads, but in some areas details down to hiking trails, businesses, sidewalks, building footprints, parking lanes in shopping centers.

I've not found an app that does everything, or even a web site that can explain everything about using a phone as a GPS, but the Mapping and Navigation section over at advrider.com has lots of discussion so you can get an idea of the possibilities. Most of apps have free versions that are either time or feature limited, so you can try them out and see if they work for you. For an Android phone, you might start by trying out OSMand, Oruxmaps, TomTom Go Navigator and maybe Locus. Locus is the most powerful and customizable, but that power comes with complexity and deeply nested menus that can be frustrating at times. Unlike the standalone GPS, if you don't like the way it works, you can just change the app, and you can have several on the phone at the same time. "Pro" versions are generally pretty inexpensive compared to a Garmin.

I still prefer my Zumo on the bike because I can control it better with gloves, there's no fussing with maintaining power and rain is not a concern. I doubt that I will replace it when it dies. I use Locus (with a couple add-ons) for a backup on the bike, for hiking and for recording daily walks (track, distance and speed). For car trips, Google Maps usually is the easiest and is great at rerouting around traffic, but I do download the maps in advance for longer trips. I've not seen any lack of detail in those maps. They will automatically update on wifi after 15 days or you can delete them.
 
…I don't see Apple Car Play as viable, because so many riders go to places where cell service is non-existent.

 CarPlay works fine without cell coverage
for preloaded content
including music and maps on some apps

I hope CarPlay is on 2021 Motorrad Models,
or at least on r1250GS
 
One or more of several things to go wrong.

2022 actually …
I hope  CarPlay is on 2022 Motorrad Models,
… or at least on r1250GS

And maybe less things to go wrong
with the elimination of NAV VI and it's TFT/Bluetooth confounders.

Integration stuff is much more mature in  Apple and Android phone eco-systems
and BMW does not have to be brilliant in those areas, just with their bikes !
 
A good Zumo on a RAM mount is all the dashboard tech I want. YMMV

When riding my phone is turned off, as in not turned on.
When riding I don't listen to tunes. Except in my head.
When riding with Voni we communicate with lights and hand signals.
When riding I have a map in my tank bag, and on trips the whole atlas in a side case.
I don't want a flapper valve in my exhaust.

I like ABS, Fuel Injection, and TPMS. My trip meter is my fuel gauge.

My (former) R1150R is as high tech as I need.
 
A good Zumo on a RAM mount is all the dashboard tech I want. YMMV

When riding my phone is turned off, as in not turned on.
When riding I don't listen to tunes. Except in my head.
When riding with Voni we communicate with lights and hand signals.
When riding I have a map in my tank bag, and on trips the whole atlas in a side case.
I don't want a flapper valve in my exhaust.

I like ABS, Fuel Injection, and TPMS. My trip meter is my fuel gauge.

My (former) R1150R is as high tech as I need.

Good for you @PGlaves, you deserve whatever suits you !
 
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