akbeemer
SURVIVOR
Is there a city planner in the house?
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/...neering-without-a-license-was-right-all-along
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/...neering-without-a-license-was-right-all-along
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Honestly Officer, the light was yellow!
- Thread starter akbeemer
- Start date
pglaves
#13338
Yes. Me. 30 Years.
Part of the problem is that certain unscrupulous private companies installing red light cameras on a profit sharing basis decreased yellow times when setting the signal system up with cameras. By shortening the yellow times more folks would get caught on red, and the company would thus make more money under the $$$ sharing agreement with the cities. A few cities got sued and most of it got fixed but ...
jandhumphreyme
Member
Interesting article his real fight was with the licensing board who fined him for "engineering without a license", because he could apply logic and mathematics to a real world problem, this is a prime example how a well intentioned review board can overreach and become authoritarian. I'm glad his formula was recognized the vindication must also make the court rulings of his unconstitutional treatment the more sweet.
The old neighborhood I lived in Maryland we had one of those dreadful red light cameras. Locals covered it with garbage bags so often the company finally decided to remove it.
The old neighborhood I lived in Maryland we had one of those dreadful red light cameras. Locals covered it with garbage bags so often the company finally decided to remove it.
In the past year, Toronto has shortened the duration of its' yellow lights. Apparently red light revenue has increased substantially.
36654
New member
While not a red light camera, past history in PA has left us with a state ban on local police departments using radar for speed enforcement. Back in the day, legend has it, a few communities did quite well with speeding ticket revenue. As a result, there's a state law banning local police forces from using radar. So, if you want to speed in PA, do it in town...................
The pendulum swings both ways......
36654
New member
Professional licensing is a two edged sword. In many (most, in my opinion) fields of engineering you'll never need a Professional Engineer (PE) stamp. However, you can't appear in court or before a government/public body as an "Engineer". You can appear as a citizen with a resume that includes ....... . In the case of medical doctors, we like these rules. In other cases, like engineering, subject matter experts from NASA might be precluded from calling themselves engineers in a municipal meeting.
The academic world is similar with the title Doctor, if you don't have a PhD and someone refers to you as Doctor, you are required to correct them on the error. Failing to do so can result in a reprimand or loss of pay from your employer. If one is found to encourage or tolerate the error, you can fired for fraud.
exgman
Active member
No red-light or speed cameras in MA. An officer has to be present and witness the violation in order to issue a citation.
Here's more: https://www.motorists.org/do-we-have-red-light-cameras-in-massachusetts/
Here's more: https://www.motorists.org/do-we-have-red-light-cameras-in-massachusetts/
Not to mention the rear end collisions when trailing drivers falsely anticipate the leading driver will speed up to avoid getting snapped red, after entering the intersection on yellow and then slams on brakes to avoid ticket. Car and Driver ran article on this wa-a-ay back. IIRC, the study discovered accident rates much higher where intersections were camera-ready.
Winnipeg posts signs indicating which intersections have cameras. And I slow down, letting others charge through, getting off my bumper. In a couple cases just take alternative route if even further. Wastes gas, warms the globe? and avoids ticket.
Do the cameras take the picture after the driver passes the half way point of the intersection? Before? Their speed? Just asking because this really doesn't seem as if anybody did the planning. More like "Hey, it's illegal and there's a fine! No human resource wasted, just mail a ticket, cut the third party a check and notify DMV of outstanding tickets." Even easier, just require all driver's license applications to list an account number to auto-pay the infractions! AI tickets. Cashless!
Winnipeg posts signs indicating which intersections have cameras. And I slow down, letting others charge through, getting off my bumper. In a couple cases just take alternative route if even further. Wastes gas, warms the globe? and avoids ticket.
Do the cameras take the picture after the driver passes the half way point of the intersection? Before? Their speed? Just asking because this really doesn't seem as if anybody did the planning. More like "Hey, it's illegal and there's a fine! No human resource wasted, just mail a ticket, cut the third party a check and notify DMV of outstanding tickets." Even easier, just require all driver's license applications to list an account number to auto-pay the infractions! AI tickets. Cashless!
I’m not a fan of the automated ticketing, whether for speeding or red lights. In most cases it’s a private company that has persuaded local officials to split the revenue. The incentive to abuse the arrangement is high, for all parties. I applaud the guy who challenged the paradigm, especially the fine by the engineers - - which was laughable.
That said, stating “Honestly Officer, the light was yellow!” isn’t much of a defense. Yellow=stop. The only exceptions are if you’re already in the intersection, or while travelling at the legal speed limit you are too close to the intersection entrance when the light turns yellow to stop safely.
Most major intersections have dashed lines in their approaches which provide guidance to average vehicles travelling at the legal speed limit. If you are outside of the dashed-line zone you can easily stop safely on yellow. If you have entered the zone before the light turns yellow you should proceed through the intersection if it does change to yellow.
That said, stating “Honestly Officer, the light was yellow!” isn’t much of a defense. Yellow=stop. The only exceptions are if you’re already in the intersection, or while travelling at the legal speed limit you are too close to the intersection entrance when the light turns yellow to stop safely.
Most major intersections have dashed lines in their approaches which provide guidance to average vehicles travelling at the legal speed limit. If you are outside of the dashed-line zone you can easily stop safely on yellow. If you have entered the zone before the light turns yellow you should proceed through the intersection if it does change to yellow.
akbeemer
SURVIVOR
Not illegal to enter an intersection when the light is yellow, and not an infraction if it turns red while the vehicle is in the intersection. It is illegal to enter an intersection when a steady red light is displayed. Such is the law in Montana.
Camera based prosecutions have been sucessully challenged citing the confrontation clause of the sixth ammendment to the US Constitution; "in all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right…to be confronted with the witnesses against him."
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That depends on the jurisdiction. For example, Virginia code states “Steady amber indicates that a change is about to be made in the direction of the moving of traffic. When the amber signal is shown, traffic which has not already entered the intersection, including the crosswalks, shall stop if it is not reasonably safe to continue, but traffic which has already entered the intersection shall continue to move until the intersection has been cleared.” So, yellow does not mean slow down; it does not mean go faster; it actually means stop. Accelerating to 20 over the speed limit to get past the line just before it turns red means I am going to give you a ticket, or at least a strong warning. Doing that stunt and getting a microsecond of red before you cross the line will definitely earn you some paper, at least from me.
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lkraus
New member
That situation would seem to be "reasonably safe to continue".
Very strange and vague wording (what's reasonable?) for that code.
Ohio is little bit more clear:
(1) Vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys facing a steady circular yellow signal indication are thereby warned that the related green movement or the related flashing arrow movement is being terminated or that a steady red signal indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter when vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys shall not enter the intersection. The provisions governing vehicular operation under the movement being terminated shall continue to apply while the steady circular yellow signal indication is displayed.
(2) Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow arrow signal indication is thereby warned that the related green arrow movement or the related flashing arrow movement is being terminated. The provisions governing vehicular operation under the movement being terminated shall continue to apply while the steady yellow arrow signal indication is displayed.
Entering the intersection on yellow is OK, entering on red is not, entering on yellow at 20 over will get you a speeding ticket, not a red light violation.
Red light cameras here were effectively eliminated when state law changed to require a LEO to be present at the intersection when the infraction occurred before a driver could be charged. Before that, the cameras recorded video clips (not snapshots) showing the light and the movement of the car through the intersection, so it was clear what happened. A few communities fought the law and it was found unconstitutional, but new rules have been upheld requiring any red-light-camera-generated revenue be reported to the state and deducted from state road funding to those communities.
"shall stop if it is not reasonably safe to continue,"I'd call that wiggle room.
"So, yellow does not mean slow down; it does not mean go faster; it actually means stop". ...unless it is reasonably safe to continue?
Part "B" of my question is that since they wrote that phrase into law, what situations do you suppose they had in mind? 3AM? No traffic? Interestingly it doesn't say "unless it would be dangerous to stop" such as on a motorcycle and being tailgated by car...
The greater danger to motorcycles comes from perpetuating the idea that yellow means “go if you think you can make it.” Having two completely different understandings about the meaning of yellow is pretty much the exact recipe for being rear-ended at intersections.
In the vast majority of jurisdictions, yellow means “stop” with limited exceptions (discussed earlier.)
Approaching an intersection with a stale green light calls for an expectation that the light could change to yellow at any moment. That means checking and even slowing speed in anticipation of possibly needing to brake to stop. This also gives tailgaters more warning and time to adjust their speed accordingly, helping to prevent a situation where you feel forced through an intersection on yellow by a tailgater.
Legislators rarely have logic in mind when they craft wording. They are mostly lawyers helping other lawyers stay in business by crafting the law in a way a lawyer can get a violator off.
Much is left to the officer’s discretion. If the officer can articulate doing something unsafe, then a conviction is possible. The same is true with red light cameras, except there is usually clear video evidence. In my jurisdiction there are stills and video along with the speed of the vehicle going through the red light. If the company (yep, the company that installs, maintains, and operates the system) believes there is a violation it gets forwarded to the police department. If the officer reviewing all that video and data also believes there is a violation, then the violator gets some mail. The person can appeal the fine to the court, and a judge will then review everything.
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Much is left to the officer’s discretion. If the officer can articulate doing something unsafe, then a conviction is possible. The same is true with red light cameras, except there is usually clear video evidence. In my jurisdiction there are stills and video along with the speed of the vehicle going through the red light. If the company (yep, the company that installs, maintains, and operates the system) believes there is a violation it gets forwarded to the police department. If the officer reviewing all that video and data also believes there is a violation, then the violator gets some mail. The person can appeal the fine to the court, and a judge will then review everything.
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Wow! So you are driving along at 30 MPH, the speed limit. 10 feet from the intersection, the light turns yellow and you are expected to stop??
I figured that, so the law is meaningless, poorly written. Totally up to the officer to decide. Where is the point that it is ok to enter on a yellow to where it isn't? Totally subjective.
I figured that, so the law is meaningless, poorly written. Totally up to the officer to decide. Where is the point that it is ok to enter on a yellow to where it isn't? Totally subjective.
