kenfrancois
New member
Does the Clutch Fluid need to be changed on a R1200RTW?
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Clutch Fluid
- Thread starter kenfrancois
- Start date
alancoles
Dress for fall & avoid it
Depends on which "Clutch Fluid" you are referring to Ken.
#2 - No - Because the clutch is hydraulicly operated it has a reservoir that operates like most other hydraulic cylinders and should not need replacing as unlike brake fluid, it is not subject to extremes of heat, etc. Most hydraulic cylinders operate on one of three fluids, hydraulic oil (10W is common), brake fluid, or ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid like Dextron III). They typically aren't subjected to significant heat build-up, their systems are not usually opened up (exposure to moisture), etc., so for all intents and purposes, unless otherwise stated (not mentioned in BMW Service Schedules that I've seen), they are a lifetime fluid.
*** Edited to correct location of the clutch fluid reservoir.
- Clutch Fluid for the actual clutch
- Clutch Fluid in the Reservoir for the clutch lever (the reservoir is located at the clutch level)
#2 - No - Because the clutch is hydraulicly operated it has a reservoir that operates like most other hydraulic cylinders and should not need replacing as unlike brake fluid, it is not subject to extremes of heat, etc. Most hydraulic cylinders operate on one of three fluids, hydraulic oil (10W is common), brake fluid, or ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid like Dextron III). They typically aren't subjected to significant heat build-up, their systems are not usually opened up (exposure to moisture), etc., so for all intents and purposes, unless otherwise stated (not mentioned in BMW Service Schedules that I've seen), they are a lifetime fluid.
*** Edited to correct location of the clutch fluid reservoir.
Last edited:
kenfrancois
New member
Thank you.
61249
Milo172
The clutch on your R1200RTW does not use any of the fluids mentioned in the previous response! To do so will comprise your clutch hydraulic system. The fluid used in the master cylinder (located on your handle bars) is a MINERAL OIL called Vitamol V10.
The actual clutch is a “wet clutch” which utilizes your engine oil.
The actual clutch is a “wet clutch” which utilizes your engine oil.
lee
Debbie's Servant
Is this a change for the R1250?
The reservoir at the back of a R1200 is for the back brake.
pappy35
New member
^^This^^
This is correct. It's mineral oil and does not need to be changed. Brake fluid is hydrophilic (which means it absorbs water from the air) and since this, over time, encourages corrosion and lowers the fluid's boiling point, it needs to be replaced periodically. Mineral oil is not and so does not need to be replaced, just replenished as needed.
pglaves
#13338
So what is the difference between "mineral" oil and "hydraulic" oil? Other than BMW's strange terminology, of course. Translated: buy our stuff!
It is my opinion that what works well in a hydraulic jack or the hydraulic system of a John Deere tractor would work just fine in a BMW motorcycle clutch's hydraulic system. Priced of course at a few dollars per quart instead of a few dollars per ounce.
alancoles
Dress for fall & avoid it
Sorry Lee, I meant at the front (at the clutch lever).
Actually Milo, it does. Vitamol V10 is a 10W hydraulic oil which is what the bike calls for, a mineral based 10W hydraulic oil. Perhaps I should have been clearer, sorry but I was in a bit of a rush and tried to send off a quick response and should have differentiated more between the different types of hydraulic fluids.
Most hydraulic fluids are mineral oil. I should have noted that while brake fluid has been used in clutch systems (including BMW) it is no longer used as it attracts water (hygroscopic) and therefore, unlike the other hydraulic fluids mentioned that are mineral oil or silicone-based fluids which are not hygroscopic. Hydraulic oil is the generic term used today for Mineral Oil with, as I mentioned, 10W being the standard (but definitely not only - think of fork oils etc.).
It is also important to note that one cannot use mineral oil hydraulic fluid in a system meant for brake fluid based hydraulic fluid (many BMW bikes with hydraulic clutch systems pre-R1200 models) as the seals will be damaged. I believe the inverse is true, but can't recall.
pglaves
#13338
Indeed. BMW marks it on the hydraulic clutch master cylinder cover (lid). It is either marked DOT4 for the early systems and mineral oil for the later systems. I don't recall when the change happened but I think it was at the time of the introduction of the R1200 bikes. I know my single spark R1150R still used DOT 4 brake fluid.
alancoles
Dress for fall & avoid it
Paul, mineral oil is a sub-set of hydraulic fluid and the most common form of it today.
As I'd noted previously the various formulations of it can be bought as hydraulic oil, ATF and brake fluid. All are hydraulic fluids and all can be mineral oil based, or not.
I just used 12 quarts of AFT fluid to fill a hydraulic ram on Friday that called for either 10W hydraulic oil or ATF (Dextron III compliant). The big difference that one has to be careful of is the base for the hydraulic fluid. These can be mineral oil (most common for non-synthetic and non-brake fluids) but can range from across:
- Mineral oil base
- Synthetic hydrocarbon base
- Phosphate-ester base
Also, I have no idea what K-bikes, etc., called for as within the BMW fold, I've only had Boxers.
stooie
Member
I dunno, Paul. I think I'm going to respectfully part ways with you on this one.
I would suggest amending to read "would PROBABLY work just fine ..." There are differences in hydraulic oils: viscosity, optimal temperature range, lubricity, and, very importantly, seal compatibility. The oil is designed to make the seal swell very slightly over time so that it seals well over the life of the oil and the component. The wrong oil can make the seal swell too much or degrade it so that it won't seal at all.
Admittedly many fluids BMW specifies are priced per oz or gram similarly to the street price of illicit drugs. At the same time, given that the clutch fluid doesn't require scheduled changes, in the once or twice in a bike's lifetime that you might have to change it I'd suggest using what the manufacturer recommends.
I'm not saying that what works in a John Deere definitely wouldn't work in the BMW's clutch but, for me, the cost savings isn't worth the risk. Your bike = your choice.
Ride long and prosper!
lee
Debbie's Servant
DOT 4 for brakes and I think K bikes started using mineral oil for the clutch in 2005.
The LT probably never made the change to mineral oil.
alancoles
Dress for fall & avoid it
Bob, you're quite right, it is likely 1-2 times in a lifetime need unless someone is in the habit of rebuilding/customizing bikes, so the price difference is very minor over the lifespan.
If you do want to reduce costs a little then one could use the same 10W mineral oil hydraulic fluid that BMW uses which, I understand to be Magura, it's available for $7.50/4-oz from Beemerboneyard vs $10 if it has BMW on it. So just a $2.50 savings, or $5/4-oz from Touratech I believe.
pglaves
#13338
I fully agree that the cost difference between Vitamol V10 which is a 10Wt. hydraulic oil by Castrol and other 10 Wt hydraulic oils is minor. But it is just part of my overall cynicism when I read dogma on this forum and other places that we need to use what BMW recommends. I agree that it is mostly a good idea to use what meets BMW specifications but a specification is not the same as a recommendation of a product from the company that does or has sponsored BMW's racing team.
I still remember when BMW recommended anti-seize as a spline lubricant followed by BMW #10 red grease which was so unsuitable it melted at room temperature on the shelf, let alone in the hot confines of the clutch bellhousing, followed by Staburags assembly paste, followed by something else. And most know just how well those fiascos worked out for them. Which is to say BMW is a company, not some sort of god.
But as always, it's your bike and your billfold.
I still remember when BMW recommended anti-seize as a spline lubricant followed by BMW #10 red grease which was so unsuitable it melted at room temperature on the shelf, let alone in the hot confines of the clutch bellhousing, followed by Staburags assembly paste, followed by something else. And most know just how well those fiascos worked out for them. Which is to say BMW is a company, not some sort of god.
But as always, it's your bike and your billfold.
alancoles
Dress for fall & avoid it
kosta15auto@yahoo.com
New member
This is "copy-paste" from somewher as a generic info. Most of it is not true or applicable for our bikes. The water colled clutch doesn't use brake fluid nor ATF. It uses a mineral oil. The reservoar is locatad on the handlebar.
kosta15auto@yahoo.com
New member
The change happened with the water0cooled engine and the use of the wet clutch.
alancoles
Dress for fall & avoid it
No, it changed with the R1200 Boxer circa 2004/2005. Both Camheads and Hexheads specified mineral oil (Hyspin V10 IIRC).
alancoles
Dress for fall & avoid it
Really??? And you know this from what? Which specific section? You are completely 100% wrong on this and I take great exception to such an unfounded lame "driveby" accusation. What I wrote were my own thoughts.
I did not state that they did use brake fluid or ATF.
I've been dealing with Mineral Oils for decades and in case you are not aware, both ATF and Brake Fluid is often Mineral Oil.
I believe that all of what I wrote is true, but I am open to being corrected. Please identify what you believe is not true. Other than identifying in one sentence that "Most hydraulic cylinders operate on one of three fluids...", it would seem to me that everything else applies directly to the R1200/1250.
For you to say "doesn't use brake fluid nor ATF. It uses a mineral oil" would suggest that you are not actually aware that brake fluid and AFT are very often if not usually mineral oil. Synthetics are another thing. I used the terms hydraulic oil, brake fluid, and ATF separately because while they are all typically mineral oil, they usually differ in their additives based on their intended usage. However, that does not mean that they can or cannot be interchanged. It only means that one needs to be aware of what they are doing as for instance, you can't use straight mineral oil hyrdaulic fluid on a system designed for mineral oil brake fluid as it will swell the seals and gum up the works. Those seals are deigned to work with the additive packages that are used with mineral oil brake fluid not mineral oil hyrdaulic fluid.
I made a mistake in my typing/thinking, which I identified immediately after Lee noted it, I had forgotten to edit my original post which I have now done as I really don't like misinformation.
