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Thread: E15 - Here it comes

  1. #46
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappy35 View Post
    A large lake at higher elevation. Isn't that's more like a capacitor?

    I'm just kidding around BTY. I only recently learned how water is pumped uphill into holding lakes and then released back down hill to recover the energy (or some fraction of it) used to pump it up.
    Capacitor vs battery ---------- a capacitor discharges rapidly while a battery is relatively linear.

    So, a lake will serve as a battery as long the quantity of withdrawn flow doesn't yield a significant change in reservoir water level (i.e., inlet head)

    Raccoon Mth in SE TN and Bath County up in VA/WV are examples of relatively recent US installations of large-scale Pumped Storage
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  2. #47
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Where we live many of our neighbors use solar power as their exclusive source of domestic electricity. They have systems including panel, batteries, charge controllers, inverters, etc. With a population density of less than one person per square mile the distribution of power lines is expensive and limited, typically along the major roads and the settlements of Study Butte and Terlingua.

    Utility companies also use large solar arrays, if you consider 10,000 or more panels large. The electric cooperative in Taos New Mexico has several shade structures over its parking lot (like big carports) and there are solar panels atop those structures. Also, in some areas they use "net metering" wherein during the day folk's solar systems feed electricity into the grid and the meters run backwards. Nightime service comes from the grid using non-solar sources of power. We personally know folks in Hawaii and New Mexico who are connected to the grid but have zero or negative (they get paid) electric bills due to solar systems and net metering.

    In the City of Presidio, Texas there is a huge battery bank used to back up the system in the event of power failures. See: http://www.ettexas.com/Projects/Presidio.

    The technology is there, and rapidly developing - not fast enough for Earth, but too fast for the gas, oil, and coal industries.
    Bingo, Mr. Glaves.

    With net metering, the "grid" functions as your "battery". The more multi-point small sources dumping onto the grid, reduces the amount of power the traditional plants have to supply. You're getting $ in exchange for your excess kw-hrs In my opinion, a powerwall is a good idea, but it isn't necessary.

    In my area, nicely cloudy Central PA, the sewage treatment plant for the area surrounding Penn State University (a 40,000+ student campus) has constructed a 16-acre array ( 2.6 MW) which supplies it's daylight electrical power needs in the Winter months. That's pretty impressive.
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  3. #48
    SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    I have a friends in Fairbanks who have two large arrays (30' X 30' is my guess) that are on poles and track the sun. They get paid in the summer; not so in the winter. I think it comes close to meaning they pay nearly nothing on an annual bases. Electricity is very expensive in Fairbanks. Nine years ago when we lived there we paid $220-220/month for electricity alone. Another $400/month for oil on a budget plan and $1500/month for wood for 6-7 months a year.

    Power outages were very common the first few years we lived there. Most of the electric power comes from down south and the lines were in bad shape, so the power company built a battery back-up for the entire city. It was (and maybe still is) a large building that is essentially a giant battery. Power outages became a brief flicker once the battery came online. I forget how long they claimed it could provide the power needed for the city but it was several hours at least.
    Kevin Huddy
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  4. #49
    Back in the saddle again mikegalbicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    With net metering, the "grid" functions as your "battery". The more multi-point small sources dumping onto the grid, reduces the amount of power the traditional plants have to supply. You're getting $ in exchange for your excess kw-hrs In my opinion, a powerwall is a good idea, but it isn't necessary.
    It really depends on your locale and how your electric company treats solar customers. Some are solar friendly and some not so. I wanted to install a system but our electric company (Lakeland Electric) penalizes solar customers to the point that the payback for the system takes twice what it normally should so it no longer is a good investment. They charge a peak demand rate so even if you generated enough power during the month to cover your needs you would still get stuck with a $25 to $50 monthly peak charge. They claim even though you help reduce the amount of electricity they need they still have to build infrastructure to supply the peak demand for everyone which is true. Without a battery I could not justify the investment and a battery doubles the cost so still not doable here yet.

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by mikegalbicka View Post
    It really depends on your locale and how your electric company treats solar customers. Some are solar friendly and some not so.
    That sounds like some legislation is in order.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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  6. #51
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikegalbicka View Post
    It really depends on your locale and how your electric company treats solar customers. Some are solar friendly and some not so. I wanted to install a system but our electric company (Lakeland Electric) penalizes solar customers to the point that the payback for the system takes twice what it normally should so it no longer is a good investment. They charge a peak demand rate so even if you generated enough power during the month to cover your needs you would still get stuck with a $25 to $50 monthly peak charge. They claim even though you help reduce the amount of electricity they need they still have to build infrastructure to supply the peak demand for everyone which is true. Without a battery I could not justify the investment and a battery doubles the cost so still not doable here yet.
    Quite true. In some cases, utilities have made commitments to very expensive new powerplant construction and don't want to sacrifice any possible market. They'll need every dollar to pay down the debt. Fortunately, most utilities can address their replacement needs with relatively cheap NG plants (Coal boiler refits or TG set replacement).
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  7. #52
    Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat Omega Man's Avatar
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    These “public” utilities
    The gas explosions I mentioned on page one of this thread have resulted in-

    In early May 2019, NiSource, the parent company of Columbia Gas of Massachusetts, says claims from third-party related to the Merrimack Valley gas disaster could cost greater than $1 billion.
    How/where does this utility get their money? ............The Customers.

    When “the best” energy source is found, we won’t see it.

    OM
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  8. #53
    '99 '03 '06 National Co-Rally Chair Friedle's Avatar
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    Bring back those nuclear power plants. Like the famous 60s bumper sticker said "Nuke the gay dead whales"

    Friedle
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  9. #54
    Registered User GTRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friedle View Post
    Bring back those nuclear power plants. Like the famous 60s bumper sticker said "Nuke the gay dead whales"
    A new China Syndrome to replace the current one?

    Best,
    DeVern
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  10. #55
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider View Post
    A new China Syndrome to replace the current one?

    Best,
    DeVern
    Nuclear Power- The most effective means of killing a public corporation. Just ask whatever they call the remnants of Westinghouse/Toshiba
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  11. #56
    Registered User crucian's Avatar
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    E15: Welfare for large corn farmers. Love the push back from Corn Country on any sensible Health Care or other subsidies for the rest of America.

  12. #57
    SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friedle View Post
    Bring back those nuclear power plants. Like the famous 60s bumper sticker said "Nuke the gay dead whales"

    Friedle
    My favorite; a bumper sticker in early 80s California, “Diablo Canyon is built better than Jane Fonda”
    Kevin Huddy
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by crucian View Post
    E15: Welfare for large corn farmers. Love the push back from Corn Country on any sensible Health Care or other subsidies for the rest of America.
    +1

  14. #59
    Left Coast Rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    Quite true. In some cases, utilities have made commitments to very expensive new powerplant construction and don't want to sacrifice any possible market. They'll need every dollar to pay down the debt. Fortunately, most utilities can address their replacement needs with relatively cheap NG plants (Coal boiler refits or TG set replacement).
    On the other hand, some forward thinking places pay the person who puts power INTO the grid through their use of solar power.

  15. #60
    Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat Omega Man's Avatar
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    Looks like 7 or so years to break even on an installation in the most popular place for solar- Aridzona.

    https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/az/

    OM
    "You can do good or you can do well. Sooner or later they make you choose." MI5
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