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E15 - Here it comes

Visian said:
You’ll notice I said “charging *and* storage system.”

You’re right, though.... so many people who think we should just junk our existing electric power infrastructure and go all renewable have zero idea about the creation, distribution and consumption of electricity. Outside of actual batteries and things like the Tesla “wall” the closest thing we have to a battery for the grid is a dammed up lake.

Ian
Click to expand...

It’s good you realize the difference :) Perhaps you can spread the word to the poor souls being talked into putting panels on their roof.
Around here, I don’t believe it will ever be cost effective when a homeowner moves forward with solar........
Out west with a ground mounted tracking array with storage :thumb
OM
 
Omega Man said:
It’s good you realize the difference :) Perhaps you can spread the word to the poor souls being talked into putting panels on their roof.
Around here, I don’t believe it will ever be cost effective when a homeowner moves forward with solar........
Out west with a ground mounted tracking array with storage :thumb
OM
Click to expand...

Where we live many of our neighbors use solar power as their exclusive source of domestic electricity. They have systems including panel, batteries, charge controllers, inverters, etc. With a population density of less than one person per square mile the distribution of power lines is expensive and limited, typically along the major roads and the settlements of Study Butte and Terlingua.

Utility companies also use large solar arrays, if you consider 10,000 or more panels large. The electric cooperative in Taos New Mexico has several shade structures over its parking lot (like big carports) and there are solar panels atop those structures. Also, in some areas they use "net metering" wherein during the day folk's solar systems feed electricity into the grid and the meters run backwards. Nightime service comes from the grid using non-solar sources of power. We personally know folks in Hawaii and New Mexico who are connected to the grid but have zero or negative (they get paid) electric bills due to solar systems and net metering.

In the City of Presidio, Texas there is a huge battery bank used to back up the system in the event of power failures. See: http://www.ettexas.com/Projects/Presidio.

The technology is there, and rapidly developing - not fast enough for Earth, but too fast for the gas, oil, and coal industries.
 
Visian said:
...closest thing we have to a battery for the grid is a dammed up lake.

Ian
Click to expand...

A large lake at higher elevation. Isn't that's more like a capacitor? :)

I'm just kidding around BTY. I only recently learned how water is pumped uphill into holding lakes and then released back down hill to recover the energy (or some fraction of it) used to pump it up.
 
PGlaves said:
Where we live many of our neighbors use solar power as their exclusive source of domestic electricity. They have systems including panel, batteries, charge controllers, inverters, etc. With a population density of less than one person per square mile the distribution of power lines is expensive and limited, typically along the major roads and the settlements of Study Butte and Terlingua.

Utility companies also use large solar arrays, if you consider 10,000 or more panels large. The electric cooperative in Taos New Mexico has several shade structures over its parking lot (like big carports) and there are solar panels atop those structures. Also, in some areas they use "net metering" wherein during the day folk's solar systems feed electricity into the grid and the meters run backwards. Nightime service comes from the grid using non-solar sources of power. We personally know folks in Hawaii and New Mexico who are connected to the grid but have zero or negative (they get paid) electric bills due to solar systems and net metering.

In the City of Presidio, Texas there is a huge battery bank used to back up the system in the event of power failures. See: http://www.ettexas.com/Projects/Presidio.

The technology is there, and rapidly developing - not fast enough for Earth, but too fast for the gas, oil, and coal industries.
Click to expand...
That’s why I said “around here”. Around here it’s roof mounts mostly, expensive to remove for roof maintenance. Homeowners deeds are “contaminated” by liens and loans. Realized expectations are “iffy”.
Bigger companies (Cape Wind) do better with the tax credits than actual monetary gains.
In your area, no doubt a winner especially if someone put some thought into the system.
I guess it’s like the “savings” in car leasing. Mathematically, a car payment is not $199/ month with $3,600 down on a 36 month lease. :deal
OM
 
pappy35 said:
A large lake at higher elevation. Isn't that's more like a capacitor? :)

I'm just kidding around BTY. I only recently learned how water is pumped uphill into holding lakes and then released back down hill to recover the energy (or some fraction of it) used to pump it up.
Click to expand...

Capacitor vs battery ---------- a capacitor discharges rapidly while a battery is relatively linear.

So, a lake will serve as a battery as long the quantity of withdrawn flow doesn't yield a significant change in reservoir water level (i.e., inlet head)

Raccoon Mth in SE TN and Bath County up in VA/WV are examples of relatively recent US installations of large-scale Pumped Storage
 
PGlaves said:
Where we live many of our neighbors use solar power as their exclusive source of domestic electricity. They have systems including panel, batteries, charge controllers, inverters, etc. With a population density of less than one person per square mile the distribution of power lines is expensive and limited, typically along the major roads and the settlements of Study Butte and Terlingua.

Utility companies also use large solar arrays, if you consider 10,000 or more panels large. The electric cooperative in Taos New Mexico has several shade structures over its parking lot (like big carports) and there are solar panels atop those structures. Also, in some areas they use "net metering" wherein during the day folk's solar systems feed electricity into the grid and the meters run backwards. Nightime service comes from the grid using non-solar sources of power. We personally know folks in Hawaii and New Mexico who are connected to the grid but have zero or negative (they get paid) electric bills due to solar systems and net metering.

In the City of Presidio, Texas there is a huge battery bank used to back up the system in the event of power failures. See: http://www.ettexas.com/Projects/Presidio.

The technology is there, and rapidly developing - not fast enough for Earth, but too fast for the gas, oil, and coal industries.
Click to expand...

Bingo, Mr. Glaves.

With net metering, the "grid" functions as your "battery". The more multi-point small sources dumping onto the grid, reduces the amount of power the traditional plants have to supply. You're getting $ in exchange for your excess kw-hrs In my opinion, a powerwall is a good idea, but it isn't necessary.

In my area, nicely cloudy Central PA, the sewage treatment plant for the area surrounding Penn State University (a 40,000+ student campus) has constructed a 16-acre array ( 2.6 MW) which supplies it's daylight electrical power needs in the Winter months. That's pretty impressive.
 
I have a friends in Fairbanks who have two large arrays (30' X 30' is my guess) that are on poles and track the sun. They get paid in the summer; not so in the winter. I think it comes close to meaning they pay nearly nothing on an annual bases. Electricity is very expensive in Fairbanks. Nine years ago when we lived there we paid $220-220/month for electricity alone. Another $400/month for oil on a budget plan and $1500/month for wood for 6-7 months a year.

Power outages were very common the first few years we lived there. Most of the electric power comes from down south and the lines were in bad shape, so the power company built a battery back-up for the entire city. It was (and maybe still is) a large building that is essentially a giant battery. Power outages became a brief flicker once the battery came online. I forget how long they claimed it could provide the power needed for the city but it was several hours at least.
 
36654 said:
With net metering, the "grid" functions as your "battery". The more multi-point small sources dumping onto the grid, reduces the amount of power the traditional plants have to supply. You're getting $ in exchange for your excess kw-hrs In my opinion, a powerwall is a good idea, but it isn't necessary.
Click to expand...

It really depends on your locale and how your electric company treats solar customers. Some are solar friendly and some not so. I wanted to install a system but our electric company (Lakeland Electric) penalizes solar customers to the point that the payback for the system takes twice what it normally should so it no longer is a good investment. They charge a peak demand rate so even if you generated enough power during the month to cover your needs you would still get stuck with a $25 to $50 monthly peak charge. They claim even though you help reduce the amount of electricity they need they still have to build infrastructure to supply the peak demand for everyone which is true. Without a battery I could not justify the investment and a battery doubles the cost so still not doable here yet.
 
mikegalbicka said:
It really depends on your locale and how your electric company treats solar customers. Some are solar friendly and some not so. I wanted to install a system but our electric company (Lakeland Electric) penalizes solar customers to the point that the payback for the system takes twice what it normally should so it no longer is a good investment. They charge a peak demand rate so even if you generated enough power during the month to cover your needs you would still get stuck with a $25 to $50 monthly peak charge. They claim even though you help reduce the amount of electricity they need they still have to build infrastructure to supply the peak demand for everyone which is true. Without a battery I could not justify the investment and a battery doubles the cost so still not doable here yet.
Click to expand...

Quite true. In some cases, utilities have made commitments to very expensive new powerplant construction and don't want to sacrifice any possible market. They'll need every dollar to pay down the debt. Fortunately, most utilities can address their replacement needs with relatively cheap NG plants (Coal boiler refits or TG set replacement).
 
These “public” utilities :banghead
The gas explosions I mentioned on page one of this thread have resulted in-

In early May 2019, NiSource, the parent company of Columbia Gas of Massachusetts, says claims from third-party related to the Merrimack Valley gas disaster could cost greater than $1 billion.
Click to expand...

How/where does this utility get their money? ............The Customers.

When “the best” energy source is found, we won’t see it.

OM
 
Bring back those nuclear power plants. Like the famous 60s bumper sticker said "Nuke the gay dead whales" :)

Friedle
 
E15: Welfare for large corn farmers. Love the push back from Corn Country on any sensible Health Care or other subsidies for the rest of America.
 
36654 said:
Quite true. In some cases, utilities have made commitments to very expensive new powerplant construction and don't want to sacrifice any possible market. They'll need every dollar to pay down the debt. Fortunately, most utilities can address their replacement needs with relatively cheap NG plants (Coal boiler refits or TG set replacement).
Click to expand...

On the other hand, some forward thinking places pay the person who puts power INTO the grid through their use of solar power.
 
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