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E15 - Here it comes
- Thread starter 36654
- Start date
mikegalbicka
Back in the saddle again
My payback was 8 - 9 years without the monthly peak demand charge. I compared my hourly usage for the previous year to calculate what it would be with the peak demand charge and it ballooned to about 20 years! You can read about that rate structure that solar users are forced on at the link below if interested. We have a county solar co-op fighting with Lakeland Electric about this fee but their attitude is this rate structure is the future and more companies will adopt it because they can't continue to subsidize solar customers at the expense of non-solar customers.
https://lakelandelectric.com/Customers/Pick-A-Plan/Price-Plans#1526406-demand-price-plan
https://lakelandelectric.com/Customers/Pick-A-Plan/Price-Plans#1526406-demand-price-plan
pglaves
#13338
Which for a place like Florida is a complete crock of bovine excrement. Peak demand comes with air conditioning on hot sunny days. This is precisely when solar systems produce the most and reduce the need for non-solar peak power. Also, should there be that rare very hot cloudy or rainy day the coop is or should be tied to a grid where that peak demand for poweer for a short time can come from Minnesota or Massachusetts.
What this tells me is that the state has a Casper Milktoast regulatory commission that is allowing nonsense explanations for high energy bills. And a political system that allows it.
It’s just people in charge of things/policy/procedures that they really don’t know anything about.
OM
ncpbmw1953
Member
Local storage is a model worth pursuing for many reasons. There is some very promising technology on the horizon that will be game changers not only for transportation but for domestic power storage. Read about Zap&Go's carbon-ion technology:
Zap&Go was founded to develop a new class of energy storage device with considerable functional improvements over commercially available supercapacitors or ‘ultracapacitors’. This technology is referred to as the Carbon-Ion or C-Ion cell in contrast to Lithium-ion or Li-ion.
The C-Ion cell will provide specific power characteristics orders of magnitude higher than a Li-ion cell. It is designed to be classified as non-flammable and non-hazardous for transport, allowing the product to be shipped easily and to comply with both current and future regulations.
Due to the method of energy storage, the cell has fewer moving parts electrochemically and has 1 million charge/discharge cycles or 30 years of normal use.
The C-Ion cell is being designed for manufacture using many of the technologies well known in Li-ion cell production. This will enable Zap&Go to quickly scale-up production and to use manufacturing capacity already in existence. This will allow new products to be made and extra functions to be added to existing products, for example:
Improved energy storage allows the cell to be used as the principal method of energy storage in a far wider range of technologies than conventional supercapacitors
High specific power allows very fast charging (in seconds) through Zap&Go’s “Instant-charge” technology
High specific power enables the extension of Li-ion battery lifetimes and reduction in battery size through peak shaving in hybrid applications
Improved safety protects customers, allows easy shipping and opens up applications in hazardous areas
Long cycle life allows energy storage to be installed for the entire lifetime of the device, reducing design complexity, eliminating service intervals and saving money
Recyclable at the end of life
Specifically, Zap&Go is creating polymer-inorganic composite electrolytes in the form of membranes. Such materials are tailored to contain interconnected nano-sized channels formed by the polymer network for easy ion migration. The polymer network weakly binds the ions to enable fast ion transport. The weak binding and fast ion transport is achieved by creating a network of vacant binding sites in the polymer.
For further information on C-Ion or for copies of technical white papers, please contact us at info@zapgo.com
The C-Ion cell will provide specific power characteristics orders of magnitude higher than a Li-ion cell. It is designed to be classified as non-flammable and non-hazardous for transport, allowing the product to be shipped easily and to comply with both current and future regulations.
Due to the method of energy storage, the cell has fewer moving parts electrochemically and has 1 million charge/discharge cycles or 30 years of normal use.
The C-Ion cell is being designed for manufacture using many of the technologies well known in Li-ion cell production. This will enable Zap&Go to quickly scale-up production and to use manufacturing capacity already in existence. This will allow new products to be made and extra functions to be added to existing products, for example:
Improved energy storage allows the cell to be used as the principal method of energy storage in a far wider range of technologies than conventional supercapacitors
High specific power allows very fast charging (in seconds) through Zap&Go’s “Instant-charge” technology
High specific power enables the extension of Li-ion battery lifetimes and reduction in battery size through peak shaving in hybrid applications
Improved safety protects customers, allows easy shipping and opens up applications in hazardous areas
Long cycle life allows energy storage to be installed for the entire lifetime of the device, reducing design complexity, eliminating service intervals and saving money
Recyclable at the end of life
Specifically, Zap&Go is creating polymer-inorganic composite electrolytes in the form of membranes. Such materials are tailored to contain interconnected nano-sized channels formed by the polymer network for easy ion migration. The polymer network weakly binds the ions to enable fast ion transport. The weak binding and fast ion transport is achieved by creating a network of vacant binding sites in the polymer.
For further information on C-Ion or for copies of technical white papers, please contact us at info@zapgo.com
mikegalbicka
Back in the saddle again
I think over-generalizations are somewhat off base but I do share your frustration. Our utility is a muni owned by our city and the GM has extensive experience. We are the only utility in Florida forcing peak pricing for solar and one of a handful nationwide but that is expected to increase in the future. I could move but I love it here so not going to happen. Is politics involved? At some level of course but we are low hanging fruit so that probably won't change.
https://lakelandelectric.com/AboutUs
https://lakelandelectric.com/About-Us/meet-the-executive-team1#785196-joel-ivy---general-manager
Peaks also hit early morning hours in winter with heaters cranking before the sun comes out. Summer months peaks can still be hit after dusk with A/C still trying to cool the house after being off all day on a timer and cooking going on for dinner, etc. They have those time periods carefully configured to increase their profit for sure but they aren't as bad as they could be because they exempt weekends. They are trying to get customers to manage their peaks to help everyone.
This is only one of many bad decisions through the years hoisted on their customers but life is still good down here. When frustrated I just go out and ride year round!
https://lakelandelectric.com/AboutUs
https://lakelandelectric.com/About-Us/meet-the-executive-team1#785196-joel-ivy---general-manager
Peaks also hit early morning hours in winter with heaters cranking before the sun comes out. Summer months peaks can still be hit after dusk with A/C still trying to cool the house after being off all day on a timer and cooking going on for dinner, etc. They have those time periods carefully configured to increase their profit for sure but they aren't as bad as they could be because they exempt weekends. They are trying to get customers to manage their peaks to help everyone.
This is only one of many bad decisions through the years hoisted on their customers but life is still good down here. When frustrated I just go out and ride year round!
pglaves
#13338
As a 30 year employee of City and County governments, it sounds to me like time to elect new City Council members. Part of the problem, of course, is the user base is too small, as it is in most municipal systems except for very large cities.
Contrast your situation with that of Kit Carson Electric Coop in and around Taos, New Mexico. They allow and encourage net metering. But in addition to welcoming roof and yard mounted solar panels they also have a system of large panel arrays for which a patron can pay a portion. If I pay the costs for 6 panels accounting for x% of the total array then I would be credited with that same x% of the entire array's production. Nothing on my roof; nothing in my yard; no maintenance; but I could still benefit from my investment in the production of solar energy. This is forward thinking intended to encourage solar energy. It is not backward looking serving to discourage the development of alternative sources of energy.
Visian
look out!!!
You forgot nuclear.
But you also touched on another huge area of non-understanding about electricity generation, distribution and consumption... that of base load.
It’s going to be quite a while before any renewable energy source has the reliable capacity required to address the needs of our base load.
Visian
look out!!!
But just tell people that the natural gas from from fracking and watch their heads explode.
36654
New member
Hmm.......been thru that. If "the people" know that state environmental laws will be enforced and those agencies funded to do their work, it builds the trust necessary to have extraction industries operating in their areas. However, if you gut the Environmental agencies and provide sweetheart tax deals, "the people" assume that they're being put at risk.
BTW - I hope you all appreciate that PA doesn't tax NG production so you all can have cheaper NG. Did you even notice?? Every election cycle we are told that PA can't have an extraction tax because it will raise the price of NG.
36654
New member
You forgot nuclear.
But you also touched on another huge area of non-understanding about electricity generation, distribution and consumption... that of base load.
It’s going to be quite a while before any renewable energy source has the reliable capacity required to address the needs of our base load.
So, you consider the hindrance of baseload to be a benefit? If the slow response of the Base Load is reduced, the Grid as a whole becomes more responsive.
Case in point, replace a coal or NG boiler-steam turbine system with a multi-unit NG gas turbine - gen set system like the GE LM-series. Adjust output by turning on/off units operating at BEP instead of relying on turn-down of a large unit.
pglaves
#13338
So what? Of course no single energy source will be the do all and end all. But solar does now and will increasingly contribute. As will wind. As could wave energy. As will nuclear. And as will natural gas, but to a lesser degree of dominance. And the entire system can be buffered with carbon ion or other emerging battery types. If we subsidized all forms of energy development as much as we do oil and gas; or stopped subsidizing oil and gas and allowing eminent domain by private pipeline companies I suspect we would make progress faster. But some folks don't want that to happen. That old quarterly report, you know.
You're talking about "social licence". Unfortunately that's a fiction of some creative people's mind.
With some folks, you won't get the first syllable of the word fracking out of your mouth before their head explodes.
Note: I'm not making an argument for or against oil or natural gas. My comment applies equally to these as well as hydro, wind farm, solar, nuclear, etc.
Wkoppa
Member
Co Gen Electrical Production
Here in Northern Michigan where we have a zillion trees and four traffic lights in the county we have a co-generation plant that burns forest products not used for the other wood product manufacturers in the area like Weyerhaueser who produces a structurewood of small chips glued and compressed into 4" x 8" sheets. Another wood product company, Aruaco just built 17 acres of buildings doing similar work targeting counter tops and furniture pieces.
The co-generation plant supplies enough electricity for 25,000 homes and claims to be carbon neutral because the junk (my word) lumber they burn emits as much carbon rotting away in the woods as it does being burned.
I think at times that 90 percent of the trees that fall in the woods do so on the 12 mile long ORV trail I take care of. It seems like an endless task keeping it open. The trees are growing, and many falling down, faster than the wood industry is using them.
Wayne Koppa
Grayling, MI
#71,449
Here in Northern Michigan where we have a zillion trees and four traffic lights in the county we have a co-generation plant that burns forest products not used for the other wood product manufacturers in the area like Weyerhaueser who produces a structurewood of small chips glued and compressed into 4" x 8" sheets. Another wood product company, Aruaco just built 17 acres of buildings doing similar work targeting counter tops and furniture pieces.
The co-generation plant supplies enough electricity for 25,000 homes and claims to be carbon neutral because the junk (my word) lumber they burn emits as much carbon rotting away in the woods as it does being burned.
I think at times that 90 percent of the trees that fall in the woods do so on the 12 mile long ORV trail I take care of. It seems like an endless task keeping it open. The trees are growing, and many falling down, faster than the wood industry is using them.
Wayne Koppa
Grayling, MI
#71,449
Visian
look out!!!
I don't think you understand what I am talking about.
... and we are way OT.
Here is a link that explains the basics. We are a long way from relying on renewables to sustain a base load. This does not mean that it will never happen and/or we should not be investing in such a direction, it simply reflects the reality of the power generation/distribution/consumption enterprise today and for the foreseeable future.
And you better hope for a profitable power industry, their stocks are probably owned by your pension fund. I know that I have invested in them.
pglaves
#13338
Actually, while not there yet, base load is the easy part for renewables to cover.
And using corn squeezings to reduce mpg of vehicles while using more energy to produce than provided by the burning is a horrible waste of precious energy. (Back on topic)
36654
New member
You'll always have those folks on both sides of the argument. However, if you institute the proper safeguards, the majority of rational folks will support a project.
gtrider
52184
And part of the equation has to be efforts to contain or reduce the base load. More and better insulation, higher efficiency appliances and equipment, etc. That includes increasingly higher fuel economy requirements, which apparently cause consternation in some segments of our society.
Best,
DeVern
Best,
DeVern
36654
New member
I don't think you understand what I am talking about.
... and we are way OT.
Here is a link that explains the basics. We are a long way from relying on renewables to sustain a base load. This does not mean that it will never happen and/or we should not be investing in such a direction, it simply reflects the reality of the power generation/distribution/consumption enterprise today and for the foreseeable future.
And you better hope for a profitable power industry, their stocks are probably owned by your pension fund. I know that I have invested in them.
Define profitable power industry? The power generator, the distribution company or the folks that build equipment. For the most part, the company we own stock in is the distribution company.
The Base load argument is real but often co-opted by Nuclear and Coal power generator seeking subsidies. The Coal stockpile concept is my favorite bending of logic to avoid direct competition with the NG power generators. Nuclear is purely an economics issue as demonstrated by Vogtle. Cost over runs, very reminiscent of the plant builds in the 1970's, have been so bad.......Toshiba could only escape corporate bankruptcy by selling/liquidating Westinghouse/Stone&Webster/Chicago Bridge & Iron to some consortium which appears to be the owners of Vogtle. In the case of existing Nukes, the issue is how many extensions on operating life can companies like Exelon get before the plants are deemed too old.
If you want to track the profit, follow the distribution companies. Just like the NG pipeline or Railroads (Coal) owners, they own the means of transport. The producers (Drillers, Coal mining or Power generators) are working in a world of rapidly declining profitability.
BTW-Thanks for posting a link from my Alma meter and former employer
