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Thread: Shop knowledge - where are you?

  1. #1
    Registered User Motodan's Avatar
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    Shop knowledge - where are you?

    Interesting search for knowledge today. Had to loosen shift lever pivot on a F850GSA this morning, in order to remove holder pin from foot peg being replaced. Job done, now needed a torque value to assure pivot bolt was accurately fastened. No such value available in owner's manual so called dealer. 15 minutes on phone with three individuals, when finally a value was given. Value didn't sound at all correct...eventually called them back and received same value...assured it was correct. Still not believing it I ended up calling three other dealers, all BMW exclusive dealers that I've bought from.. Here are the values I received:

    19 Newton meters
    41 Newton meters
    41 Newton meters
    200 Newton meters

    That 200 Nm came from the first dealer, the selling dealer. That's 148 lb/ft...that's NUTS! Plus I was assured a second time - it was correct!! I question anything on that bike calling for such a high torque...rear wheel nut is only 74 lb/ft.

    Not sure where the 19 came from, but settled on 41 (30 lb/ft).

    Will be glad when BMW finally gets a service manual out and hope my new service shop will be better informed.
    '19 F850GSA - '18 Z900RS

    MOA #46783

  2. #2
    Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat Omega Man's Avatar
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    I'm partial to the "mechanic's feel". This is based on tightning fasteners in similar situations. I really only think about-




    is for head bolts and the like. This has worked for more than a half century I do have a raft of manuals.....just in case

    OM
    "You can do good or you can do well. Sooner or later they make you choose." MI5
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Motodan View Post
    Interesting search for knowledge today. Had to loosen shift lever pivot on a F850GSA this morning, in order to remove holder pin from foot peg being replaced. Job done, now needed a torque value to assure pivot bolt was accurately fastened. No such value available in owner's manual so called dealer. 15 minutes on phone with three individuals, when finally a value was given. Value didn't sound at all correct...eventually called them back and received same value...assured it was correct. Still not believing it I ended up calling three other dealers, all BMW exclusive dealers that I've bought from.. Here are the values I received:

    19 Newton meters
    41 Newton meters
    41 Newton meters
    200 Newton meters

    That 200 Nm came from the first dealer, the selling dealer. That's 148 lb/ft...that's NUTS! Plus I was assured a second time - it was correct!! I question anything on that bike calling for such a high torque...rear wheel nut is only 74 lb/ft.

    Not sure where the 19 came from, but settled on 41 (30 lb/ft).

    Will be glad when BMW finally gets a service manual out and hope my new service shop will be better informed.
    All bolts have torque values depending on size. Most manufacturers of fasteners assign a value where the bolt just starts to stretch. If you can't find a proper torque, a chart like this will get you in the ballpark.

    https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-i...ed-Torque.aspx

  4. #4
    Registered User Motodan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldDog View Post
    All bolts have torque values depending on size. Most manufacturers of fasteners assign a value where the bolt just starts to stretch. If you can't find a proper torque, a chart like this will get you in the ballpark.

    https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-i...ed-Torque.aspx
    That is a good chart if one knows the actual bolt size. In this case the bolt size is not actually known. As pix shows the head is a T-60 Torx, why BMW found it necessary to use that head I'm not sure. However, the torque value is 30 lb/ft, not the 149 lb/ft dealer stated. Think they thought with a T-60 head it must be a BIG bolt and just threw out the 149?
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    '19 F850GSA - '18 Z900RS

    MOA #46783

  5. #5
    SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    If I were a dealer I would be very hesitant to answer a question such as the one you asked over the phone. Too much chance for misunderstandings and resulting damage.

    I can only guess who came up with the numbers you were provided at the different dealerships.
    Kevin Huddy
    The Outpost, Silver City, Montana

  6. #6
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motodan View Post
    Interesting search for knowledge today. Had to loosen shift lever pivot on a F850GSA this morning, in order to remove holder pin from foot peg being replaced. Job done, now needed a torque value to assure pivot bolt was accurately fastened. No such value available in owner's manual so called dealer. 15 minutes on phone with three individuals, when finally a value was given. Value didn't sound at all correct...eventually called them back and received same value...assured it was correct. Still not believing it I ended up calling three other dealers, all BMW exclusive dealers that I've bought from.. Here are the values I received:

    19 Newton meters
    41 Newton meters
    41 Newton meters
    200 Newton meters

    That 200 Nm came from the first dealer, the selling dealer. That's 148 lb/ft...that's NUTS! Plus I was assured a second time - it was correct!! I question anything on that bike calling for such a high torque...rear wheel nut is only 74 lb/ft.

    Not sure where the 19 came from, but settled on 41 (30 lb/ft).

    Will be glad when BMW finally gets a service manual out and hope my new service shop will be better informed.

    I'm guessing the 200 was 200 kg-cm. In standard units, that's ~19 N-m.
    Cave contents: 16 R12RS, 13 Toyota Tacoma, 03 Simplicity Legacy, 97 Stihl FS75, Dewalt DW625 & SawStop PCS175
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  7. #7
    Registered User Motodan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    I'm guessing the 200 was 200 kg-cm. In standard units, that's ~19 N-m.

    Maybe, but when I said, on the second call, that's over 140 lb/ft, he said "well, you don't want that to fall off".
    '19 F850GSA - '18 Z900RS

    MOA #46783

  8. #8
    Registered User Motodan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    If I were a dealer I would be very hesitant to answer a question such as the one you asked over the phone. Too much chance for misunderstandings and resulting damage.

    I can only guess who came up with the numbers you were provided at the different dealerships.

    If it wasn't for there being only one bolt holding the shift lever on and a BMW dealership being the only source for this information (since there isn't a service manual available yet), and all contacts were with supposedly highly qualified service departments, I might agree.
    '19 F850GSA - '18 Z900RS

    MOA #46783

  9. #9
    Registered User pappy35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motodan View Post
    Maybe, but when I said, on the second call, that's over 140 lb/ft, he said "well, you don't want that to fall off".
    And that's a clue strongly suggesting you should never bring your bike there for service.
    '13 R1200RT 90th Anniversary Edition

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Motodan View Post
    That is a good chart if one knows the actual bolt size. In this case the bolt size is not actually known. As pix shows the head is a T-60 Torx, why BMW found it necessary to use that head I'm not sure. However, the torque value is 30 lb/ft, not the 149 lb/ft dealer stated. Think they thought with a T-60 head it must be a BIG bolt and just threw out the 149?
    Very true. I'll bet you're right. Big Torx, big bolt. Not always.

  11. #11
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motodan View Post
    Maybe, but when I said, on the second call, that's over 140 lb/ft, he said "well, you don't want that to fall off".
    I suggest a different shop for service
    Cave contents: 16 R12RS, 13 Toyota Tacoma, 03 Simplicity Legacy, 97 Stihl FS75, Dewalt DW625 & SawStop PCS175
    1) My expectations are never low enough & 2) Incompetence is infinite ........David Brooks

  12. #12
    Registered User STEVENRANKIN's Avatar
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    Dealer

    Could the dealer's answers be cases of A, You caught me at a bad time?, B. You didn't buy the bike from me, why are you bothering me? C. I don't have time to answer questions for people who do their own work, taking money out of my pocket? D. Call BMW don't bother me, I am not in the business of answering questions for people who do their own repairs. I am here for my customers. E. If you don't have a proper manual, why are you working on an expensive bike?

    I could continue the thread above to most likely the end of the alphabet.

    Playing devil's advocate, how many of us would like to be in business answering calls like the above? St.

  13. #13
    Registered User Motodan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STEVENRANKIN View Post
    Could the dealer's answers be cases of A, You caught me at a bad time?, B. You didn't buy the bike from me, why are you bothering me? C. I don't have time to answer questions for people who do their own work, taking money out of my pocket? D. Call BMW don't bother me, I am not in the business of answering questions for people who do their own repairs. I am here for my customers. E. If you don't have a proper manual, why are you working on an expensive bike?

    I could continue the thread above to most likely the end of the alphabet.

    Playing devil's advocate, how many of us would like to be in business answering calls like the above? St.
    Well, A) they were all very forthcoming and not put off, according to their voice attitude. B) I've bought bikes from all four of the dealerships contacted, over the years. One was in Michigan, one in Missouri, one in New York and last in Illinois. C) Giving out a torque value, that isn't available elsewhere didn't seem to bother any of them...in fact, all said call back if you have any other questions. D) Pretty much same as C however, I was a customer and/or could be a potential customer - again and E) No one has a manual because BMW hasn't made one available and I can work on the bike regardless of cost..I just needed a torque value - A CORRECT TORQUE VALUE. Or I could ride over to the nearest dealer who's only 160 miles away to ask at the counter what the torque value is. Phone call was quite appropriate...the incorrect answers are the point here
    '19 F850GSA - '18 Z900RS

    MOA #46783

  14. #14
    In the course of wrenching our own bikes over the past 40 years I can't even count the number of times I called a dealership - usually Engle Motors in Kansas City - seeking technical advice. I never ever got the run around or any sense of resentment that I called. When Voni's R1100RS broke a cam chain tensioning rail in the mid '90s I called a half dozen dealerships and none of them did anything but be helpful, even though none of them had split the cases to make this repair.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://web.bigbend.net/~glaves/

  15. #15
    Registered User 6322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldDog View Post
    All bolts have torque values depending on size. Most manufacturers of fasteners assign a value where the bolt just starts to stretch. If you can't find a proper torque, a chart like this will get you in the ballpark.

    https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-i...ed-Torque.aspx
    Standard torque on a given size/thread pitch is a good place to start but don't lose sight of the material it's threading into. Airhead center valve cover bolt, case in point.
    Gary Phillips - #6322
    Wildland Firefighter, Retired, Riggins, ID
    Heartland Moto Locos BMW Riders
    '77 R100/7 Dirt Hack, '83 R80ST, '85 K100RS w/EML, '93 K1100LT, '00 R1100RS

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