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Thread: Tire Temperature Safety range

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Wethead View Post

    If you don't have the data I request on this post, or know the information, I would suggest you just admit that instead of asserting that there is no danger parameters because people ride on those tires in Iran, Iraq, because you done it across the desert in the US, nor any other empirically unsubstantiated assumption void of any evidence.

    Its ludicrous and somewhat nave to assert I needn't concern myself with the issue based of the lack of blown-tire report from the Middle East...like if CBS is up with that issue. Yea! come to think about it, I never heard of a tire blown due to heat on CNN either, nor on Fox...therefore, that must have never happened. Geezus folks, I hope the rest of my RT was not built on those research premises.

    To be honest with ya, I don't even want to hear what happens in them middle eastern countries let alone concern myself with their hot tires.
    You asked this question on BMWLT as well and there a have been 48 replies. Honestly, only the tire manufacturer can answer your question to your satisfaction. Since this is of paramount importance to you I suggest you get a lawyer and seek the manufacturer's compliance in court.

    https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/rt-seri...need-know.html

  2. #17
    Back in the saddle again mikegalbicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikegalbicka View Post
    Sounds like something you would get from the manufacturer tire specs. What tires are you running?
    On that post he supplied this info:

    120/70 and 180/55

    If someone has a specs from the Dunlop Co. I would appreciate it. I am running Smart III Dunnies

    With that in mind I suggest he contact the manufacturer to get the info he wants:
    https://www.goodyear.com/en-US/company/contact-goodyear

  3. #18
    Caution! Rant!

    No, No, No, No, not ever!

    The OP over on the LT forum said that the tire pressure had risen to 56 psi in the heat so the pressure was lowered to 42 psi hot! No! Not ever! That was probably down to what would be a 30 or 32 psi cold pressure.

    As a tire heats up and cools down the pressure changes. As temperature rises so does pressure, and as temperature drops so does pressure. That is what happens. Boyles Law of Gasses.

    The pressure embossed on a tire sidewall is the "Maximum COLD Pressure" which by definition is at 20 degrees Celcius or 68 degrees F.

    On a modern bike once the pressure is set at the bike manufacturer's recommended pressures (and air doesn't leak out, of course) you are good to go at virtually any temperatures you are likely to encounter. Yes - the pressure will go up as the tire heats up, and goes down as the tire cools off. But reducing a hot 56 psi tire to 42 psi and then riding on it was/is a disaster waiting to happen.

    Interesting side note: We are currently riding G310GS bikes to Canada. These 350 pound dual-sport bikes take the same size tires as the bigger porky GS bikes. But the BMW recommended pressures are nowhere the same as on the porkier bikes. BMW says cold (20 degree C) pressures should be - gasp- 24 psi front and 28 psi rear. We run a bit higher pressures - 28F and 32R. On my R1150 that would be 36F and 42R.

    So to repeat the rant. If your cold pressure is correct, NEVER, ever let air out of a hot tire because the pressure went up. Sometimes technology such as TPMS provides too much information if that information is misunderstood.

    Rant over. Please carry on.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://web.bigbend.net/~glaves/

  4. #19
    SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    Gee Paul, are you sure? 😊
    Kevin Huddy
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  5. #20
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    I think the OP's concerns are valid, but mostly in the domain of non-typical tires--i.e., defective tires as are described in this article:

    https://www.revealnews.org/article/f...odyear-recall/

    One would guess a tire destined for recall would very likely be more vulnerable to extreme heat than typical properly manufactured tires. The problem is of course you don't know if your newly released PR5GT is destined for recall. Or the next batch of my beloved Conti RA3GT. Considering the millions of miles done on motorcycle tires all over the world in uber hot conditions one gets the sense blowout failures are really rare. We do hang our arsses out in so many ways be it the deer, the antelope, the big female elk that hopped across the road in front of me just yesterday, the texting drivers, the DUI'ers, a bicyclist who does a u-turn in front of me at point blank range while I was going about 50mph, and when push comes to shove when your drive shaft explodes and locks up your rear wheel, well you get the idea. It seems this particular issue, tire blowouts, are very close or at the very bottom of the list of things that may get us one fine day!
    Last edited by ncpbmw1953; 08-13-2019 at 04:11 PM.

  6. #21
    Registered User dlong's Avatar
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    This is nothing more than a snapshot of riding conditions and tire pressures as measured today on my R1200RT LC. This is a close as I could get to a "tire" chop, allowing for a safe and level spot to pull over. Previous 30 miles of short straights linked by high speed sweepers taken at speeds between 70 and 95. Dunlop RoadSmart 3's. I realize the OP has concerns about more extreme riding conditions, but i was curious about conditions more common to my riding routine.

    Data before the ride:

    Garage ambient temp as measured by the bike thermometer: 80.6 F

    Tire pressures measured by gauge: 38.5 F/43.5 R

    TPMS readings 1/4 mile from my garage: 35 F/40 R

    After a 100 mile one way breakfast run and almost home:

    Ambient temp as measured by the bike thermometer: 96 F

    Road surface temp as measured by infrared thermometer: 148 F

    Tire temps measured in the same way: 148 F/ 147 R [measured in the tread center, the hottest section]

    Tire pressures by gauge: 41.5 F/ 48.5R

    TPMS readings: 36 F/42 R

    Yeah, I guess I could have headed toward Phoenix and sampled in really hot conditions, but that is rarely in my real-world wheelhouse. Even allowing for ambient temps in the low 100's, not uncommon where I live, I feel confident the tire temps and pressures would remain in a safe range. Also, the oft quoted rule of thumb for determining cold inflation pressures adjusting for rise in ambient temps above 68 F [add 1 psi/10 F] seems roughly valid.

  7. #22
    Dress for fall & avoid it AlanColes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wethead View Post
    ... Let me be frank: you are insulting not only my intelligence, but also your own... with such absurd justification of: "tires will never blow up due to heat"...
    I take offense to baseless assertions. If they were founded on anything factual that would be different, but they don't appear to be. As for your quote above, it doesn't actually appear from anyone who tried to be of help to you.

    No one here was rude enough to suggest that your question didn't warrant a polite response, even though you failed completely to provide any of the basic information/parameters needed to provide a compete answer (bike make and model, tire manufacturer and model, etc., etc.). Instead, everyone tried to answer your question politely and you have the nerve to state "you are insulting not only my intelligence, but also your own" and then sugggest we (or me) are being "ludicrous and somewhat nave"!!! That is so rich that it stands on its own with no response necessary.

    Reagarding the article you quoted, you may have misread it. It supports what I said.

    My passing mention of no issues raising alarm bells from driving in the Middle East was, as stated, to provide the perspective that ambient temperatures were not typically an issue. If you prefer to ignore information, that's your problem, but sticking one's head in the proverbial sand never enlightened anyone as far as I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wethead View Post
    ... If you don't have the data I request on this post, or know the information, I would suggest you just admit that instead of asserting that there is no danger parameters because people ride on those tires in Iran, Iraq, because you done it across the desert in the US, nor any other empirically unsubstantiated assumption void of any evidence...
    I'm not sure how you missed my advice.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlanColes View Post
    ... you should be contacting the tire manufacturer, their International site if you can't get a satisfactory answer locally...
    Quote Originally Posted by Wethead View Post
    ... Its ludicrous and somewhat nave to assert I needn't concern myself with the issue based of the lack of blown-tire report from the Middle East...like if CBS is up with that issue. Yea! come to think about it, I never heard of a tire blown due to heat on CNN either, nor on Fox...therefore, that must have never happened. Geezus folks, I hope the rest of my RT was not built on those research premises.

    To be honest with ya, I don't even want to hear what happens in them middle eastern countries let alone concern myself with their hot tires...
    If those are your news sources than you definitely should think about expanding your horizons. If you actually read my post you would have recognized that I was absolutely not saying anything of the sort. You are completely misunderstanding what is being written here by people trying to help you.

    What I said was basically that you should be more concerned about the cause of the temperatures which is most often under-inflation. Barring that, you would then look to the next (but distant) most likely issues of overloading the bike, prolonged speeds above the tire's speed rating, an issue with dragging brake pads or a bad wheel bearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wethead View Post
    ... But still, my question is not being answered either. What is the temperature safety range of our motorcycle tires...
    Quote Originally Posted by Wethead View Post
    ... I still want to know the numbers...provided by empirical methods
    As I, and others have said, that is information that the manufacturer has call them.


    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    For the data cited regarding heat related blowouts, probably most were caused by low air pressure creating too much sidewall flex which creates extra heat.
    Id suggest for your high ambient temperature scenario, best thing is to monitor tire pressure for increase above the never exceed number. Easy enough to reduce pressure when that occurs...
    Kent, under-inflation accounts for approx. 90% according to studies of any size and professionalism.

    My only addition to what you wrote would be that most everyone misunderstands tires, tire-pressure, proper diagnosis, and proper adjustment. It can be almost worse than an oil thread. One of these misunderstandings is the manufacturer's "Maximum PSI" on the sidewall refers to Maximum Cold PSI only. In case someone misconstrues what you said, it does not refer to hot PSI, it refers to Cold PSI settings. Outside special conditions (racing, off-road, etc.) one should not take hot PSI into consideration for private street vehicles.

    Paul and other mentioned TPMS that take temperature into account and have alarms. As mentioned, these have mostly been removed from sale for private road-going vehicles and are mostly used for off-road, commercial or tractor-trailers. For the tractor-trailers, this is so that they can have extra warnings regarding tires that are often re-treads and that can't always identify a wheel bearing issue on the inside front wheel of the four tires on the rear of the cab. That and other specialized factors make temperature readings very helpful. But for the average Joe with little to medium tire knowledge, it can be as misleading as an accurate oil temperature gauge. There is a very good reason why most street-going cars and bikes have significant dampening on their oil temperature gauges. This moves the gauge to the centre quicker than it should and keeps it there rather than allowing it to fluctuate so that the dealerships aren't constantly hampered with customers unfounded concerns over things they really don't understand. Very much like the hundreds of LC Boxer water-pumps needlessly replaced (some did need replacing) because they wept. This was a natural function of that bearing and actually a necessary one. BMW has fixed the issue by placing a tube (a sponge or wick tube in some cases) in the crankcase so that the coolant isn't seen to weep and simply evaporates.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikegalbicka View Post
    On that post he supplied this info:
    120/70 and 180/55
    If someone has a specs from the Dunlop Co. I would appreciate it. I am running Smart III Dunnies
    With that in mind I suggest he contact the manufacturer to get the info he wants:
    https://www.goodyear.com/en-US/company/contact-goodyear
    Mike, if your cold PSI is correct, you aren't overloaded and aren't riding for continued periods above their speed-rating, I really would not worry about tire temps, especially with a quality top-tier tire like the SmartIII. I have not run the SmartIII so don't know where they are "happiest", but you can't go wrong with the using the bike owners manual PSI recommendation. Some tires will do a little better adding 1-2 PSI above that, but that is too specific for here.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    ... The OP over on the LT forum said that the tire pressure had risen to 56 psi in the heat so the pressure was lowered to 42 psi hot! No! Not ever! That was probably down to what would be a 30 or 32 psi cold pressure...
    Paul has hit the nail on the head, Although, I would venture to say that if the cold-tire pressure were taken the next morning it would likely read in the low-mid 20's and possibly lower still. I'll explain at the end.

    Paul has also identified where you, Wethead, and to be fair, many others make their worst mistakes.

    You say you want empirical data, but completely ignore the empirical data you have at hand. Every passenger car, motorcycle and passenger tire manufacturer specifically states:
    • only read your tire pressures when they are cold
    • never remove air from a hot tire

    If one knows anything about tires, it is that if you have a tire that was 35-42 PSI cold and is now 56 PSI hot you do not remove air from the hot tire and you absolutely do not bleed it down to only 42 PSI. Every tire and vehicle manufacturer explicitly warns against doing that.

    This has, like I said, the horrible potential to become akin to an oil thread, but I'd like to set a few parameters down so that folks can get a better idea of what they should be looking at and concerning themselves about.

    1. Ambient temperature has very little effect on healthy, properly loaded and inflated tires run within the parameters set out on their sidewalls
    2. Underinflation is the biggest cause of tire failure by a factor of 10x compared to all others combined. The next biggest is overloading.
    3. Tire temperature is the result of load/PSI/speed/ambient-temperature (ambient-temperature is the smallest factor in generating "high" tire temperatures)
    4. If a healthy, properly operated tire shows too much pressure gain (Hot vs Cold) then the cause is virtually always under-inflation
    5. If a healthy, properly operated tire shows too little pressure gain (Hot vs Cold) then the cause is virtually always over-inflation
    6. High-performance motorcycle street tires don't give their best traction until the are at ~200F

    The performance street tires on my Mustang (slightly apples-to-oranges) have an optimal operating range of 160 220F. Performance street tires for a motorcycle like the Michelin Power RS (used on the R1200RS, etc.), used on the track, don't get into their optimal operating range for hot dry tracks until they are around 200F. Touring tires can run at those temps but get greasy and IIRC, have their best traction 10-15F lower.

    When I was racing cars nationally (my BMW M3 took two National Class titles) we spent a lot of time maximizing the performance of the tires. Michelin was one of my sponsors and we took the first National Title for them with one of their brand new performance street tires.

    On the race track, we would use a $400 Longacre Probe Pyrometer to measure tire temperatures.
    • If we were below our desired temperature range we would remove air
    • If we were above our desired temperature range we would add air

    So remember that if the tire temperature is too high you need more air, if it is too low you need to remove air.
    Note: Removing air from a hot tire is not recommended ever for the street. It should only be done for track situations where you have proper baselines logged, are using professional and calibrated equipment to measure things and have a thorough understanding of tire technology.

    Someone mentioned seeing truck tire pressures never varying more than 3-4 PSI. I'd venture to say that you were just on the side of being slightly over-inflated and likely saw very good wear with just a bit quicker wear in the centre of the tire vs the edges. Could be wrong as there are tons of variables there but "typically" you would want to see an increase of 50%-to-double that for a truck tire between cold and hot. A change of 3-5 PSI is more common for a motorcycle tire.

    YMMV ;-)
    Regards, Alan - President BMWONS - BMWMOA/BMWRA/BMWONS/Airheads
    Current: 2019 R1250RT / '06 Ducati ST3s / '91 R100GS / '86 R80RT / '75 R90S / '73 850 & '70 750 Commando Prev: '14 R1200RT / '04 R1150RT / '81 Honda GL1100 / '77 Suzuki GS750 / '73 Norton 850 Commando

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by dlong View Post
    This is nothing more than a snapshot of riding conditions and tire pressures as measured today on my R1200RT LC. This is a close as I could get to a "tire" chop, allowing for a safe and level spot to pull over. Previous 30 miles of short straights linked by high speed sweepers taken at speeds between 70 and 95. Dunlop RoadSmart 3's. I realize the OP has concerns about more extreme riding conditions, but i was curious about conditions more common to my riding routine.

    Data before the ride:

    Garage ambient temp as measured by the bike thermometer: 80.6 F

    Tire pressures measured by gauge: 38.5 F/43.5 R

    TPMS readings 1/4 mile from my garage: 35 F/40 R

    After a 100 mile one way breakfast run and almost home:

    Ambient temp as measured by the bike thermometer: 96 F

    Road surface temp as measured by infrared thermometer: 148 F

    Tire temps measured in the same way: 148 F/ 147 R [measured in the tread center, the hottest section]

    Tire pressures by gauge: 41.5 F/ 48.5R

    TPMS readings: 36 F/42 R

    Yeah, I guess I could have headed toward Phoenix and sampled in really hot conditions, but that is rarely in my real-world wheelhouse. Even allowing for ambient temps in the low 100's, not uncommon where I live, I feel confident the tire temps and pressures would remain in a safe range. Also, the oft quoted rule of thumb for determining cold inflation pressures adjusting for rise in ambient temps above 68 F [add 1 psi/10 F] seems roughly valid.
    This TPMS is providing "temperature compensated" pressures, and doing a very good job of it.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://web.bigbend.net/~glaves/

  9. #24
    [QUOTE=BC1100S;1175928]
    Quote Originally Posted by Wethead View Post
    Let me be frank: you are insulting not only my intelligence, but also your own...

    If you don't have the data I request on this post, or know the information, I would suggest you just admit that.....QUOTE]

    Geez, Wethead, no need to get pissy. We're just trying to help. Here's some more unsolicited advice which doesn't specifically answer your question: inflate your tires to the cold maximum recommended on the sidewall, don't exceed the GVWR, and if that doesn't work for you...slow down.
    I know, sorry about that. My apologies. I am getting a little cranky in my old age, plus there is a bunch of crap going on at work that is eating me up. I shouldn't take it out on you guys...my bad!
    "...whether is clear to you or not, the universe is unfolding as it should"

  10. #25
    SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Wethead;1176008]
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1100S View Post

    I know, sorry about that. My apologies. I am getting a little cranky in my old age, plus there is a bunch of crap going on at work that is eating me up. I shouldn't take it out on you guys...my bad!
    Your problem is the work thing. Bad habit and is to be discontinued at the first possible moment.
    Kevin Huddy
    The Outpost, Silver City, Montana

  11. #26
    [QUOTE=akbeemer;1176025]
    Quote Originally Posted by Wethead View Post

    Your problem is the work thing. Bad habit and is to be discontinued at the first possible moment.
    am a tellin' ya: this 'work thing' has been getting in the way all of my life. I could well do with out it.
    I gotta find a grocery store that gives free-food...and a gas station, and a BMW shop, and a clothing store...and a free woman, that, I know there ain't any of.
    "...whether is clear to you or not, the universe is unfolding as it should"

  12. #27
    Dress for fall & avoid it AlanColes's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Wethead;1176008]
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1100S View Post
    I know, sorry about that. My apologies. I am getting a little cranky in my old age, plus there is a bunch of crap going on at work that is eating me up. I shouldn't take it out on you guys...my bad!
    We all have bad days. I'm certainly not immune to them. ;-)
    Regards, Alan - President BMWONS - BMWMOA/BMWRA/BMWONS/Airheads
    Current: 2019 R1250RT / '06 Ducati ST3s / '91 R100GS / '86 R80RT / '75 R90S / '73 850 & '70 750 Commando Prev: '14 R1200RT / '04 R1150RT / '81 Honda GL1100 / '77 Suzuki GS750 / '73 Norton 850 Commando

  13. #28
    Back in the saddle again mikegalbicka's Avatar
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    whether is clear to you or not, the universe is unfolding as it should

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