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Post here if you've had prematurely worn cam lobe(s) in your wethead

I was checking out potential recalls on a Wethead at the NHTSA site and came across an interesting "Manufacturer Communication" from 2019, https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10165251-9999.pdf

In part:
Complaint
Ticking noises from the cylinder head

Cause
Due to quality differences in the adhesion of the DLC (Diamond like coating) of the
rocker arm, the rocker arm and camshafts can wear prematurely.
This presents itself initially as ticking noises from the cylinder head.

Measure
All the K46/13 (S1000RR'c) manufactured since 1/16/2018 are being fitted with a new
version rocker arms. The other models, including the K8x (F850/750GS), will still be
temporarily manufactured with the previous version rocker arms and converted gradually.
The coating of the new lever has additional layers, which have a damping effect and
increase the robustness of the layers. Visually the new rocker arms differ considerably
from the old ones, see attached image.

If the only complaint of the vehicle is ticking noises and the motor is not damaged
apart from worn rocker arms and camshafts, ALL rocker arms and camshafts will
be replaced and an oil and oil filter change carried out.

ATTENTION. Always check both cylinders in the K5x (R1200's) and ALWAYS replace
all 8 rocker arms, even if all rocker arms do not show traces of wear!


So, maybe the problem has not been improper hardening of the camshaft, but faulty rocker arms?
 
I was checking out potential recalls on a Wethead at the NHTSA site and came across an interesting "Manufacturer Communication" from 2019, https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10165251-9999.pdf

In part:
Complaint
Ticking noises from the cylinder head

Cause
Due to quality differences in the adhesion of the DLC (Diamond like coating) of the
rocker arm, the rocker arm and camshafts can wear prematurely.
This presents itself initially as ticking noises from the cylinder head.

Measure
All the K46/13 (S1000RR'c) manufactured since 1/16/2018 are being fitted with a new
version rocker arms. The other models, including the K8x (F850/750GS), will still be
temporarily manufactured with the previous version rocker arms and converted gradually.
The coating of the new lever has additional layers, which have a damping effect and
increase the robustness of the layers. Visually the new rocker arms differ considerably
from the old ones, see attached image.

If the only complaint of the vehicle is ticking noises and the motor is not damaged
apart from worn rocker arms and camshafts, ALL rocker arms and camshafts will
be replaced and an oil and oil filter change carried out.

ATTENTION. Always check both cylinders in the K5x (R1200's) and ALWAYS replace
all 8 rocker arms, even if all rocker arms do not show traces of wear!


So, maybe the problem has not been improper hardening of the camshaft, but faulty rocker arms?

Very interesting. So this problem extends even to the F850GS and the F750GS, too. Wow.
 
And reading further down the page...

"After expiration of vehicle and parts warranty, reimbursement would only be considered in the case of qualified good will."

Thanks to Ikraus for digging this up. Finally some solid information that has somehow leaked from the Mothership.
 
I took a look at the cited notice https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10165251-9999.pdf

A further sentence reads...

"Until further notice, continue to install the original rocker arms in all K02 (G210R), K03 (G310GS), K5x (R1200's) and K8x (F850/750GS) motorcycles".

This seems a bit contradictory with the "Always check ... and ALWAYS replace all 8 rocker arms" statement.


The way I read this, corrected replacement parts are in short supply, so new engines will continue to be built with the defectice components. Corrected components will be used to make repairs.

Also, given the engines that are affected, my hunch is that Loncin is the source of defective components. Regardless, these defective components are also in the F750GS and F850GS engines. So it may only be a matter of time before these models also start developping similar issues.
 
Yes, that too is under consideration and I know my local (Blackfoot) would love to get me onto a new 1250....but aside from the extra mula, I have reservations....weight, new technology that needs some proving before I will buy into. Besides, I am trying to make a point here that BMW has the capacity to build a quality bike that shouldn't have major engine components giving out at 60,000 K....(~40,000 Mi), and if they do (as numbers are starting to prove), they should admit it and get behind the fix. That's what upholds a good reputation on a high quality machine. Am I wrong?

G


I would be writing a letter to the dealership asking for the repairs to be made under warranty. When they, and BMW refuse to comply, I would be registering an action with the small claims court of my province. With the NHTSA document in hand, as to why these cams wear prematurely, you may have the smoking gun. I think one can make a sound arguement to the court that a modern vehicle has an expectation to last more the 60000 km. You can also possibly subpoena all of BMW's records of cam replacements for these models proving that BMW is aware and in fact contined to sell a defective product. (though it does appear BMW has already done this in the NHTSA document, though BMW Canada may contest this) I suppose a lawyer would be required to assist with the wording of the subpoena. A subpoena would likley get BMW Canada's attention and perhaps prod them to do the right thing.
 
I took a look at the cited notice https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10165251-9999.pdf

A further sentence reads...

"Until further notice, continue to install the original rocker arms in all K02 (G210R), K03 (G310GS), K5x (R1200's) and K8x (F850/750GS) motorcycles".

This seems a bit contradictory with the "Always check ... and ALWAYS replace all 8 rocker arms" statement.


There is no contradiction here at all. BMW continues to sell motorcycles knowing full well that some of them contain defective rocker arms. That fact that they may self destruct destroying themselves and the camshafts, is immaterial to BMW. As far as BMW is concerned, they will replace the defective parts when within the warranty period. But. if your bike is out of warranty, good luck to you! This just makes my blood boil.

Many thanks to the poster who dug up the smoking gun.
 
Wow, welcome to BMW ownership!

Traded my Ducati Monster 1200S for a 2020 R1250 GS last week. Love the bike, but I started reading this post because the bike has a ticking noise at idle, just like the videos that have been posted. Right now, with 160 miles, it seems to be intermittent depending on the temperature of the engine. I’ll have it checked out at the 600 mile service, but thank goodness for the 3 year warranty.

I have a KTM 790 Duke, which I expected to be like some girls I dated: fun but flaky. However I thought the BMW would be the kind you marry. I’m worried it could be the other way around;)

Rickdm
 
Wow, welcome to BMW ownership!

Traded my Ducati Monster 1200S for a 2020 R1250 GS last week. Love the bike, but I started reading this post because the bike has a ticking noise at idle, just like the videos that have been posted. Right now, with 160 miles, it seems to be intermittent depending on the temperature of the engine. I’ll have it checked out at the 600 mile service, but thank goodness for the 3 year warranty.

I have a KTM 790 Duke, which I expected to be like some girls I dated: fun but flaky. However I thought the BMW would be the kind you marry. I’m worried it could be the other way around;)

Rickdm

Enjoy the bike and ride the snot out of it. They all make some noise. Have dealer check at the break in service and ask him to make sure its got the latest firmware. My 2019 1250RT runs great. Makes a little noise but they all do. I bought to dealer for 600 miles service, then once again when I found I had older firmware. Did the 6000 myself and will bring to them for the upcoming 12,000. Will mention to make sure to check cam lobes and cam timing when checking the valves.

Like you said...3-year warranty so ride the hell out of it. Any big issues (if any) should come up during that and your covered. Enjoy your new bike :)
 
If true then it is sad that BMW would put $ first by use of parts that may need to be replaced in their products. Realize it is a numbers game, still as a buyer you would end up ...stepping right up and rolling the bmw dice. See if you are a winner before the warranty runs out. It would be wrong to install substandard parts in a product if such is true. If enough buyers knew one would think they would say ‘no’ to buying a new bmw motorcycle if a model might use such parts.

Heck, if they were short of updated parts, with COVID, have to wonder if it take longer to get updated parts in the manufacturing pipe line. At any rate, just reading a bit of thread so hoping I understanding is off base. Been owning opposed twins my entire biking life of one model or another it seems.

Seems all industries of manufacturing do this to one degree to another.
 
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I took a look at the cited notice https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10165251-9999.pdf

A further sentence reads...

"Until further notice, continue to install the original rocker arms in all K02 (G210R), K03 (G310GS), K5x (R1200's) and K8x (F850/750GS) motorcycles".

This seems a bit contradictory with the "Always check ... and ALWAYS replace all 8 rocker arms" statement.

One thing I noticed is that this bulletin seems to explicitly exclude the R1250s. I know someone has posted in this thread that they have seen the issue of a 1250 but I never saw any evidence of it and this post was the only one I've seen saying the R1250s have the same issue. Am am skeptical. Why? In the rocker bulletin, the new improved rocker part number is "11 33 8 389 397". I checked the illustrated parts manual for my bike, R1250RT and found that the 1250s already have the new rocker arms. Actually, this part number is now shown for the R1200s. So I checked my R1250 Repair DVD. The pictures show the new style rockers. If anyone with a 1250 really has this pop-up, please take photos and do some show and tell ;)
 
Used R1200RT

So, should one consider buying a 2015 R1200RT with less than 3500 miles from an individual? I had a 2011 RT that i sold last July low seat/suspension model. This new to me unit is not a low unit, one's body changes over ten years, leastways mine has thus the reason for a different bike with more seat room. But after reading 16 pages of complaints about the R1200RT LC version i'm not so sure it's the bike for me, as it has no warranty due to the age. As others have stated its a pricey repair. Like others have stated i do like the FJR, and have considered one of those, but don't think it's as comfortable as the RT. Any advice/opinions will be appreciated.
 
So, should one consider buying a 2015 R1200RT with less than 3500 miles from an individual? I had a 2011 RT that i sold last July low seat/suspension model. This new to me unit is not a low unit, one's body changes over ten years, leastways mine has thus the reason for a different bike with more seat room. But after reading 16 pages of complaints about the R1200RT LC version i'm not so sure it's the bike for me, as it has no warranty due to the age. As others have stated its a pricey repair. Like others have stated i do like the FJR, and have considered one of those, but don't think it's as comfortable as the RT. Any advice/opinions will be appreciated.

If you change with part of the garage you're in, you can read 16 pages of complaints about other models of bike...

There are hundreds of thousands of these bikes in use world wide. A few had an issue or two.
 
There are many 1250 GS with bad cams. Here is one, Post 162, 800 miles on a 2020.
https://advrider.com/f/threads/r1250gs-enging-ticking.1380605/page-9

"There are many" - compared to the number of GS' sold? You reference one, on a forum that probably has more GS riders from all over the world than any other single collection of people...

I'm with alegerlotz.
If you change which part of the garage you're in, you can read 16 pages of complaints about other models of bike...

There are hundreds of thousands of these bikes in use worldwide. A few had an issue or two.
 
Well that is one of many 1250's. Now if you want to count 1200's your gonna run into the hundreds.

Point is this is a premium brand who refuses to correct something that has been going on since 2014.

You bring out a brand new motor, still after knowing you have a problem and install known bad cams into it, and if that is not enough, you put brakes on it that leak and cause a stop sale order.

I have checked around 30+ cam timing and cam position sensors on the 1200 motors. I have NEVER found a bad cam and I was looking. The person who wrote the original procedure asked me to run a finger nail on every lobe to see if I could find this issue. I never did.

Yeah none of this matters UNLESS it is your new 23K bike sitting on a stop order or waiting on cams that are back ordered or brake calipers that are non existent back order and then need to wait on Brembos because they should have used them in the first place.

I love my BMW but their QC is worth nothing these days. You can guzzle Kool Aid all you want but the FACT is BMW is dropping the ball.

And while ADV Rider is a large board, the UK/Europe Forums are where the majority of BMW are sold and you can surf those for a lot more cam failures, paint failures, flap failures, and drive shaft failures then anywhere. You do know that we (USA) are a very small part of BMW sales right?

There is nothing on a BMW that can not be found on other brand except the BMW Roundel.

Ohh and BMW sold 175,200 TOTAL world wide in 2019.

With any vehicle manufacturer, all it has to do is make it past the basic warranty period, which is usually 3 years. After that, the failures usually fall on the customer, which is a windfall to dealers in many cases. If the cost of having to repair them under warranty exceeds a certain point or they get called on a safety issue, they'll fix it, otherwise, it's cheaper to leave things as they are. You left one out too: Throttle body pulleys on hex and cam heads. They fail too, especially in hotter climes. To me, that's a safety issue and complaints to the safety board have been made, but I guess not enough to cause a recall. The official fix is pricey, there are options now, but when mine broke there weren't. I was a year plus out of warranty at the time and BMWs response was, first we heard of it(not true as there were some complaints to the government over it)...get it fixed at the dealer and send us the bill and maybe we'll cover it or not. Sure, would have been 1400+. I got a complete throttle body/fuel injection and boden box off a low mile salvage for 225 dollars. Working fine 6 years later. The only thing I can tell you is that BMW does make a cohesive package and mine hasn't had that many problems, but the new ones cost a lot more than I paid for mine, I don't need some of the gadgetry, I want less maintenance/maintenance I can do myself and then I hear of problems like this.
 
Well that is one of many 1250's. Now if you want to count 1200's your gonna run into the hundreds.

Point is this is a premium brand who refuses to correct something that has been going on since 2014.

You bring out a brand new motor, still after knowing you have a problem and install known bad cams into it, and if that is not enough, you put brakes on it that leak and cause a stop sale order.

I have checked around 30+ cam timing and cam position sensors on the 1200 motors. I have NEVER found a bad cam and I was looking. The person who wrote the original procedure asked me to run a finger nail on every lobe to see if I could find this issue. I never did.

Yeah none of this matters UNLESS it is your new 23K bike sitting on a stop order or waiting on cams that are back ordered or brake calipers that are non existent back order and then need to wait on Brembos because they should have used them in the first place.

I love my BMW but their QC is worth nothing these days. You can guzzle Kool Aid all you want but the FACT is BMW is dropping the ball.

And while ADV Rider is a large board, the UK/Europe Forums are where the majority of BMW are sold and you can surf those for a lot more cam failures, paint failures, flap failures, and drive shaft failures then anywhere. You do know that we (USA) are a very small part of BMW sales right?

There is nothing on a BMW that can not be found on other brand except the BMW Roundel.

Ohh and BMW sold 175,200 TOTAL world wide in 2019.

I'm not saying that this thing isn't real, and believe me, every time I pop open valve covers, I inspect my cams closely to see whether or not there is abnormal wear. IMO BMW should be covering this issue 100% for bikes that encounter this issue because it is a manufacturing flaw.

That being said, the guy asking the question was considering not looking at a low mileage bike because of this. The percentage of bikes with this issue is still extremely low, and my point was that. Personally I wouldn't shy away from the bike he was considering because of this possible problem.
 
I'm not saying that this thing isn't real, and believe me, every time I pop open valve covers, I inspect my cams closely to see whether or not there is abnormal wear. IMO BMW should be covering this issue 100% for bikes that encounter this issue because it is a manufacturing flaw.

That being said, the guy asking the question was considering not looking at a low mileage bike because of this. The percentage of bikes with this issue is still extremely low, and my point was that. Personally I wouldn't shy away from the bike he was considering because of this possible problem.

It's easy enough to pop the valve covers. If the owner balks, walk.
 
I agree, it would not stop me from buying a bike.

I would want to inspect the cams and if the owner did not allow it I would walk.

It is so hit and miss, new old, few or many miles, just a crap shoot when the surface hardening starts to go.

I would think a bunch more of BMW if they just flat out said it would replace the cams. Even if I had to pay labor it would beat the poke in the eye BMW is giving owners on this issue.

Hey I love BMW my 3rd one and I will never own another brand. My GS does everything I want and need it to do. It will be the bike I die with. It is why I went to a 17.5 GS when I had the chance but not the need. I loved my 15 RT until I sat on a low GS. I did not want TFT, but I wanted the upgraded transmission. I did not know I wanted a low model, but after sitting it it was a done deal. I wanted a bike that looked good without the bags and wanted a boxer motor.

Thing is I have checked cams and valves on mine since 60 miles. That is 60, 600, 6,000, 12,000, and 18,000 basically every oil change. So I enjoy the work, have the tools, and I have time to do it. But what about everyone else who does not? What about the guys that dont belong to this Forum and are even aware of it?

BMW needs to step up and make sure they do the right thing on this cam issue. I dont have 1200 bucks for cams how about you?

It's even more than that. The cam followers and follower shafts have to be replaced too and then anything else they find. I would think with labor it could be well over $2k.
 
I'm not saying that this thing isn't real, and believe me, every time I pop open valve covers, I inspect my cams closely to see whether or not there is abnormal wear. IMO BMW should be covering this issue 100% for bikes that encounter this issue because it is a manufacturing flaw.

That being said, the guy asking the question was considering not looking at a low mileage bike because of this. The percentage of bikes with this issue is still extremely low, and my point was that. Personally I wouldn't shy away from the bike he was considering because of this possible problem.

How does anyone really know the percentage? Are you quoting from a specific report? It is a crap shoot, therein lies the problem. BMW does not deal in transparency when it come to anything besides new unit sales records...and that's a guess on my part.
 
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