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Thread: 2020 R1250rt

  1. #16
    Addicted to curves azgman's Avatar
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    And because they wanted the R9T to be air cooled (OK, oil/air cooled). In other words, no big radiators.
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  2. #17
    BMW MOA co-founder bmwdean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertBob View Post
    The current RT model is very dated and a declining percentage of BMW motorcycle sales.
    I disagree. I think the current RT is very attractive and forward looking. Moreover, IMHO it is the finest large road motorcycle available in the world. If its sales have been declining, as alleged, I would like to see evidence of that claim to dispel possible "fake news."

    I am told that the 2020 model will be pretty much the same as the 2019, with some tweaks. If there is to be a major redesign it may have to be 2021 at the earliest.
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  3. #18
    Registered User easy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdean View Post
    I disagree. I think the current RT is very attractive and forward looking. Moreover, IMHO it is the finest large road motorcycle available in the world. If its sales have been declining, as alleged, I would like to see evidence of that claim to dispel possible "fake news."

    I am told that the 2020 model will be pretty much the same as the 2019, with some tweaks. If there is to be a major redesign it may have to be 2021 at the earliest.
    I agree.....

    Easy

  4. #19
    Dress for fall & avoid it AlanColes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdean View Post
    I disagree. I think the current RT is very attractive and forward looking. Moreover, IMHO it is the finest large road motorcycle available in the world. If its sales have been declining, as alleged, I would like to see evidence of that claim to dispel possible "fake news."

    I am told that the 2020 model will be pretty much the same as the 2019, with some tweaks. If there is to be a major redesign it may have to be 2021 at the earliest.
    My feelings as well Jeff. I've not seen model-specific numbers for BMW for some time. BMW just set record motorcycle sales numbers for the 8th year in a row! Doing far better tan many of it's competitors. Granted, much of that increase may well be from the smaller bikes like the 310, etc., but to suggest that it might be in jeapordy of being discontinued due to it's styling, engine, and sales volume is quite a stretch, and ignores the facts. Perhaps, the poster paid too much attention to the US sales figures, or that BMW Motorrad had a rough 1st quarter/half for 2018, but they continued to grow for 8 straight years. Anyone else do that?

    I'm not sure what touring bike others might find more attractive, but there aren't any that I prefer and I've ridden most of them and seen and sat on all of them. As for the motor, I would suggest the poster look into the history of BMW's failed attempt to discontinue/reduce the Boxer engine within their lineup when they brough out the K-bike. BMW have never in their 95+ year history offered as many bikes with the Boxer engine as they do today, never. As for sales volume, first, the Boxer engine accounts for over half of all BMW Motorrad sales and second, I suspect they sell more RT's than K1600 GT and GTL models combined.

    To me, my RTW is the best available all-around large touring/street bike. If I had to sell all my bike save one, and could only have one bike going forward, it would be an RT. The only bike that I would sell my 2014 RTW for would be an R1250RT.
    Regards, Alan - President BMWONS - BMWMOA/BMWRA/BMWONS/Airheads
    Current: 2019 R1250RT / '06 Ducati ST3s / '91 R100GS / '86 R80RT / '75 R90S / '73 850 & '70 750 Commando Prev: '14 R1200RT / '04 R1150RT / '81 Honda GL1100 / '77 Suzuki GS750 / '73 Norton 850 Commando

  5. #20
    As AlanColes said, worldwide sales were up for the 8th year and BMW even recovered from the 1st quarter stumble in the US to post an overall 2018 increase of 2.2%. At least according to this coverage of the press release. But it is true that adventure bikes are by far the most popular at the moment with the GS listed as the largest seller in the USA and, by my quick calculation anyway, 60% of all global Boxer sales.

    I don't think that spells doom for the RT by any means and BMW will always need an alternative tourer to the K1600 in the lineup if only to justify that bike's price. In fact, I think the strong growth in GS bikes bodes well for the RT. Motorcycle sales seem to flow in waves - something new entices new riders, then innovation slows and those riders age into easier to ride bikes as they hit their 40s, 50s, and 60s. Eventually something new hits the market and another wave of riders enters. They too will age into bikes like the RT, especially all those GS riders who will grow to love the Boxer engine. I started riding on a used Yamaha DT175 enduro bike in the mid 80s, bought a KLR 650, tried sportbikes with a Honda VFR, rode light cruisers for a while, and now finally brought home my ultimate dream R1250RT a few weeks ago as I slide into 50. All the people who bought cruisers during the American Choppers and Biker Build Off hype last decade will age into something that doesn't leave you sore and stiff after only 100 miles. The RT will be waiting.

    I do think the Boxer engine itself is an Achilles heel though. There is only so much efficiency and power one can wring from the design (I drive a Subaru so I guess you'd call me a Boxer fan) and eventually I think the RT will need to move to something else to stay competitive and within increasingly tight emission laws. But, the shift-cam made me a believer that there is at least one more design cycle left, and I"m sure some new tech after that. So, no regrets on the purchase of a 2019.

    I do hope the cockpit tech gets an upgrade in 2020 and beyond. I hope BMW finally gets its headlight act together and makes LEDs standard (and someone figures out how to make them backward compatible). And I hope some of the self-driving tech makes it into a user-selectable mode. But now that I finally put down my money on a 2019 I'll get to drool from the sidelines for a while.

  6. #21
    Debbie's Servant Lee's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum grumpy.
    Lee
    2016 R1200RS
    MOA # 30878
    Past BMW Bikes: 2011 K1300S, 2003 K1200RS, 1991 K75S, 1987 K75T, 1984 R100RT

  7. #22
    Dress for fall & avoid it AlanColes's Avatar
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    Welcome, Grumpy and congrats on the new bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpysquatch View Post
    ... I think the strong growth in GS bikes bodes well for the RT...
    I would agree. There are so many identical parts between the two bikes (aside from bodywork) that there must be very little additional cost to BMW to offer the RT while realizing a good bump in sales. Win-Win and another reason why I don't think the RT is in jeapordy.

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpysquatch View Post
    ... the shift-cam made me a believer that there is at least one more design cycle left, and I"m sure some new tech after that. So, no regrets on the purchase of a 2019...
    My feeling is that it isn't a problem for at least another 5+ years when Euro-6 regs come into effect for motorcycles, and they have several tech bits that can help.

    Euro-4 hit the RT in 2017 (2016 was for "new" bike models) and Euro-5 will hit it in 2021 (2020 for new models) This might be why BMW brought the 1250 out so quickly to have it on the market for a full 2-years of fine-tuning before needing to satisfy Euro-5. So that takes us to 2021 and beyond. Not sure when Euro-6 will actuially be required for motorcycles.

    BMW have several things that they haven't yet done to the 1250 that will reduce emissions:

    Variable Valve Timing on the exhaust side - current 1250 is VVT on intake only. BMW did the intake only because it:
    • gives the most bang for the buck
    • easier
    • less expensive
    • VVT on exhaust is mostly about reducing emissions, while VVT on intake reduces emissions while increasing HP & TQ

    Dual Fuel Injectors
    • Using both Port and Direct injection for better power, economy and emissions - https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...ect-injection/
    • many car companies are using this now with good success. I have a 2019 Mustang Bullitt that has 480 HP from 5.0L and yet gets 30 mpg-us on the highway

    These are just two items of many that I think will help keep the Boxer compliant for some time to come.
    Regards, Alan - President BMWONS - BMWMOA/BMWRA/BMWONS/Airheads
    Current: 2019 R1250RT / '06 Ducati ST3s / '91 R100GS / '86 R80RT / '75 R90S / '73 850 & '70 750 Commando Prev: '14 R1200RT / '04 R1150RT / '81 Honda GL1100 / '77 Suzuki GS750 / '73 Norton 850 Commando

  8. #23
    Registered User alegerlotz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpysquatch View Post
    But it is true that adventure bikes are by far the most popular at the moment with the GS listed as the largest seller in the USA and, by my quick calculation anyway, 60% of all global Boxer sales.
    GS Bikes are definitely popular. But there are people with no interest in riding one (at least as their primary bike). I don't like sitting up that high, and I like the creature comforts of the RT over a bike like that. I might get a used one for the occasional rides where its additional off road capabilities are required, but as a primary bike, no way.


    Quote Originally Posted by grumpysquatch View Post
    I don't think that spells doom for the RT by any means and BMW will always need an alternative tourer to the K1600
    In terms of being an alternative to the K1600, the differences are huge. The weight factor alone is enough to many to write off the K bike straight away. Also, I can't see many law enforcement agencies coughing up the extra money to purchase a K1600 police bike. The R12XX is a good offering in the law enforcement space.

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpysquatch View Post
    I do think the Boxer engine itself is an Achilles heel though. There is only so much efficiency and power one can wring from the design (I drive a Subaru so I guess you'd call me a Boxer fan) and eventually I think the RT will need to move to something else to stay competitive and within increasingly tight emission laws. But, the shift-cam made me a believer that there is at least one more design cycle left, and I"m sure some new tech after that. So, no regrets on the purchase of a 2019.
    I'm curious as to what it is about the Boxer Engine that makes it harder to keep up with emissions standards. The tolerances are now nice and tight thanks to liquid cooling. Internal combustion engines comes in many forms, but in the end they are all: air/fuel in - explosion - exhaust out. Is it the maximum reasonable CC size the aspect that you mean?


    R bikes and the boxer engines have been rumoured to be "on the way out" since the first K bikes were introduced in the mid 80s. At this rate of demise, the 2050 R####RT should be a hell of a bike.
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    2005 R1200RT (2/2015 - 12/2016)
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  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by alegerlotz View Post
    I'm curious as to what it is about the Boxer Engine that makes it harder to keep up with emissions standards. The tolerances are now nice and tight thanks to liquid cooling. Internal combustion engines comes in many forms, but in the end they are all: air/fuel in - explosion - exhaust out. Is it the maximum reasonable CC size the aspect that you mean?
    I was thinking about cars when I wrote that, and motorcycles may be less affected, but once the main combustion issues have been worked out, minimizing CO2 emissions becomes a matter of reducing vehicle weight to increase efficiency. And because of the opposing cylinders, boxers are inherently heavier and more complex per unit of displacement than V engines. Porche overcomes this penalty by using light but expensive alloys. At some point though, reducing the weight of the boxer becomes cost prohibitive. The need to go from airhead to oilhead to the wethead indicates to me that BMW is pushing the power limits of the current configuration and is likely nearing the end of what can be wrung from the boxer design. At some point if emissions become tough enough, they won't be able to reduce weight without changing the engine design. Perhaps the RT is in a price class that will tolerate more expensive alloys. I'm not sure.

  10. #25
    Dress for fall & avoid it AlanColes's Avatar
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    Grumpy, the RT is always reviewed as being one of the lightest bikes in its class. When you compare the weight of any other 125 HP (Wethead) to 135 HP (Shift Cam) bike with full luggage, racks, etc., etc., the weight is very good for how versatile the bike is.

    You're quite right that once you have exhausted all other options, reducing weight is the only avenue left, but that presupposes the current Boxer engine is there, and I've not seen anything to indicate that it is.

    BMW has just started to use VVT on the intake (don't need it on the exhaust yet), and asymmetrical valve actuation leaving plenty on the table to employ as needed. The 136-HP from the 1254cc of the new Boxer is just a 20% bump (displacement adjusted) over the 2004 Boxer Cup Replica's 1085cc 98-HP, and the new bike gets better fuel economy with lower emissions. Over a decade ago Volvo started putting fibre-optic wiring in their cars. Not to increase bandwidth itself, or to increase transmission speed (both of which it does), but to reduce weight for better fuel economy and lower emissions. The need to meet emission standards and still have significant power and fuel economy has been met quite well with the R1250 engine, for now. After they have employed VVT on the exhaust, dual fuel injectors, etc., and a newer round of emission standards are introduced, if we are not seeing any improvements in either fuel economy or power along with meeting the new standards, then you can figure that they have reached the impass point. Until then, enjoy the ride. ;-)
    Regards, Alan - President BMWONS - BMWMOA/BMWRA/BMWONS/Airheads
    Current: 2019 R1250RT / '06 Ducati ST3s / '91 R100GS / '86 R80RT / '75 R90S / '73 850 & '70 750 Commando Prev: '14 R1200RT / '04 R1150RT / '81 Honda GL1100 / '77 Suzuki GS750 / '73 Norton 850 Commando

  11. #26
    Registered User lkchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertBob View Post
    I think the RT will either be updated or replaced with a new model based on the S1000 engine and platform. The current RT model is very dated and a declining percentage of BMW motorcycle sales. Putting the new 1250 engine in the RT was a very inexpensive way to extend the life of the RT while eliminating the "wet head" engine from the lineup.
    Ridiculous.

    BMW previously attempted to replace the boxer twin and that didn't work. They'll not make the same mistake twice.

    That attempt was, however, serendipitous in that it created the GS phenomenon, as since "touring" boxers became unavailable, the choice was between K-bikes and GSs. GS quickly became BMW's best selling model and remains so. In fact, in the UK the GS is the best selling motorcycle period.

    So many people make comments about the RT forgetting the most important thing ... the first priority for the RT is to be a police bike.
    Kent Christensen
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  12. #27
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    I heard that by 2030 everything will be solar powered electric.
    Alicia from The Left Coast
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  13. #28
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by GSA Girl View Post
    I heard that by 2030 everything will be solar powered electric.
    *******
    And AOC will be President. BAAA!

  14. #29
    Parts of this thread sound like what must have been said in the stables at the turn of the 20th century as internal combustion engines were beginning to be used for transportation. I'm positive many a hired hand mucking out the stalls was just as knowing about the future of transportation as many folks are now as they make fun of evolving technologies. At 74 I may not be around to see the full blown electric revolution but some on this Forum will be and will be amazed at what they scoffed at.

    My Lithium ion booster battery is about 1/3 the size of a 6v lantern battery and will crank a V8 engine with ease. And that isn't even cutting edge technology.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://web.bigbend.net/~glaves/

  15. #30
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    Very well said Paul! Horses to gas power to battery power, time marches on.

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