The Legendary Motorcycles of Germany

oldcamper · Nov 4, 2018

As a long time BMW enthusiast it is disappointing to see them sourcing engines and complete motorcycles from 3rd party suppliers known not for best quality, but lowest cost.
To add insult to injury BMW is maintaining their European price points on these new bikes AND their replacement parts.

Consider for example, if a Loncin copy of a Honda engine is “almost as good” as a real Honda but less than half the price, why should a Loncin copy of a BMW engine honestly be expected to be any different?

What am I missing here?

Omega Man · Nov 4, 2018

I think I understand your point. I also think that there needs to be a similar bike to similar bike comparison on this subject. The 1600 and the Goldwing seem to be priced about the same- for what they are.
I would like to think in the case of the 310, it's a new product "trying" to compete. I don't know price to price for that size comparison.
OM

gtrider · Nov 4, 2018

What am I missing here?

Mostly that production contract negotiations are not just about price, but also include clear specification of required quality standards and certifications (ISO, etc). The supposed superiority of “made in the USA” or “made in Germany” hasn’t been borne out in the real world—just compare QC stats on Japanese or Korean cars with their US counterparts, for example, or big-4 Japanese motorcycles against their German or US counterparts. My friends riding other brands are puzzled at my ownership of a spare complete final drive for the BMW bike that my wife and I use for touring...

So from a technical standpoint I have no qualms about BMW’s production outsourcing and indeed, am hopeful that contracting with companies on the Asian continent, where the QC principles of W. E. Demings and others were adopted more quickly than here in the US, might lead the marque away from “We don’t make mistakes in the fatherland” to “we see component X is having a failure rate of Y, we must hammer this down to zero as soon as possible and in current production.”

One may have other, more personal concerns over shifting production locales—I certainly do—but product quality isn’t one of them.

Best,
DG

akbeemer · Nov 4, 2018

GTRider said:
Mostly that production contract negotiations are not just about price, but also include clear specification of required quality standards and certifications (ISO, etc). The supposed superiority of “made in the USA” or “made in Germany” hasn’t been borne out in the real world—just compare QC stats on Japanese or Korean cars with their US counterparts, for example, or big-4 Japanese motorcycles against their German or US counterparts. My friends riding other brands are puzzled at my ownership of a spare complete final drive for the BMW bike that my wife and I use for touring...

So from a technical standpoint I have no qualms about BMW’s production outsourcing and indeed, am hopeful that contracting with companies on the Asian continent, where the QC principles of W. E. Demings and others were adopted more quickly than here in the US, might lead the marque away from “We don’t make mistakes in the fatherland” to “we see component X is having a failure rate of Y, we must hammer this down to zero as soon as possible and in current production.”

One may have other, more personal concerns over shifting production locales—I certainly do—but product quality isn’t one of them.

Best,
DG

You should expect a late night visit in the next few days.

BC1100S · Nov 4, 2018

OldCamper said:
What am I missing here?

Hasn't seemed to have negatively affected Triumph.

I'm in agreement with GTRider.

oldcamper · Nov 4, 2018

BC1100S said:
Hasn't seemed to have negatively affected Triumph.

I'm in agreement with GTRider.

I believe Triumph’s Thailand plant was designed, built, and staffed by Triumph, and only Triumph products are built there. Same goes for Honda, Suzuki, and Kawasaki in Thailand.

BMW’s business is only a small fraction of their low cost suppliers total revenue and I wonder how much attention it will get.

Thanks for all the objective replies.

fmdualexhaust · Nov 4, 2018

The supposed superiority of “made in the USA”
Or giving a worker in the USA a job. I'll take America or Germany, thanks.
My 2 cents.

brownie0486 · Nov 4, 2018

When the Germans decided to start a Sig Sauer plant in Exeter, NH, quality control took a huge dive for years, and is still problematic with certain models the NH division decided needed to be offered.

I don't want anything made in the USA by Sig, the older motherland guns are well known as reliable to a fault.

Just one example of Germans not making their own products. Used to be German engineering and build quality was far superior to about anything made elsewhere. Perhaps over engineered, but still utterly reliable without QC issues over many decades.

BMW isn't impressing me with their latest models/years bikes having constant issues for this that or something else that would never have been allowed by the old guard. BMW of 20-30 years ago is not the same BMW today. And it's not for the better.

blacque jacque shellacque · Nov 4, 2018

I think the BMW emblems are still made in Germany. That's what makes it German and perhaps legendary.

shortythorne · Nov 4, 2018

brownie0486 said:
When the Germans decided to start a Sig Sauer plant in Exeter, NH, quality control took a huge dive for years, and is still problematic with certain models the NH division decided needed to be offered.

I don't want anything made in the USA by Sig, the older motherland guns are well known as reliable to a fault.

Just one example of Germans not making their own products. Used to be German engineering and build quality was far superior to about anything made elsewhere. Perhaps over engineered, but still utterly reliable without QC issues over many decades.

BMW isn't impressing me with their latest models/years bikes having constant issues for this that or something else that would never have been allowed by the old guard. BMW of 20-30 years ago is not the same BMW today. And it's not for the better.

Sad, but so true. :nod

..........and from what I understand, the country of Germany isn't what it used to be either.

pglaves · Nov 4, 2018

shortythorne said:
Sad, but so true. ..........and from what I understand, the country of Germany isn't what it used to be either.

Unfortunately when the countries of East Germany and West Germany rejoined as a single Germany a highly industrialized part of the country was joined by what was to a considerable extent a peasant economy. As the industries were required to assimilate untrained peasants into the work force problems arose. I think things got bad for a while but are now getting better but I couldn't prove that notion to be true.

Anyname · Nov 4, 2018

Having worked with a number of companies in several countries, it's my observation is that when you work with vendors you get the quality you insist on and, to some degree, you get the quality you deserve. By this I mean that if you select a qualified vendor, pay them a reasonable fee for their goods and services, put the required effort into specifying what you want and providing proper quality control, you'll get a quality product.

If you go to a country like China or India, and buy your products based on price alone, you should expect crap. If you work with your vendors as closely as Apple does with their vendors, you'll likely get excellent quality.

Several of us on this forum have KTM 390s. These are made by Bajaj in India. These are fairly sophisticated motorcycles and so far, mine seems to be made to a high standard. Perhaps some BMW 310 owners can weigh in on their experiences with the products of Indian manufacture.

oldcamper · Nov 4, 2018

No doubt the quality of the new bikes will be at least adequate, but a product’s appeal is often related to its source. French wine, Belgian chocolate, Italian sports cars, Swiss watches, and German motorcycles are all desirable products, even though there are many alternatives, some superior.

FWIW, I like the new 850GS, and would like it even more if it had the Loncin badge on the tank, as it would then likely be priced around $10k. With BMW badging, the $18k MSRP is more than a Versys 1000, V-Strom 1000, Africa Twin 1000, even the shaft-drive Super Tenere 1200. Something just doesn’t seem right here.

Due to age, I will need to downsize from the 1200 soon. Actual price of my next bike is not important but value is. The BMW community is important to me but the new 850’s do not seem a good option. Maybe I’ll just go back to an Airhead.

martyhill · Nov 5, 2018

A question.

shortythorne said:
Sad, but so true. ..........and from what I understand, the country of Germany isn't what it used to be either.

I wonder how many times you have visited Germany?

akbeemer · Nov 5, 2018

I've lived in Germany twice for a total of six years, and visited a few dozen other times. Shorty's comment rings true in my opinion. For example, one of of the places I used to live in Mannheim can no longer be accessed because the streets are barricaded and the Police will not enter the area. Germany is a great nation that is going through some turbulent times.

henzilla · Nov 5, 2018

Anyname said:
Several of us on this forum have KTM 390s. These are made by Bajaj in India. These are fairly sophisticated motorcycles and so far, mine seems to be made to a high standard. Perhaps some BMW 310 owners can weigh in on their experiences with the products of Indian manufacture.

Have a 390, side by side to it's sibling 690, see few quality issues. My biggest gripe was the Sharpie numbers left on inside of rear footrest plates that I could see from either side. Small potatoes :violin

As mentioned, QC is key and cannot imagine BMW with the 310 series nor KTM and its 390 Indian built products were not on top of things

jammess · Nov 5, 2018

OldCamper said:
No doubt the quality of the new bikes will be at least adequate, but a product’s appeal is often related to its source. French wine, Belgian chocolate, Italian sports cars, Swiss watches, and German motorcycles are all desirable products, even though there are many alternatives, some superior.

FWIW, I like the new 850GS, and would like it even more if it had the Loncin badge on the tank, as it would then likely be priced around $10k. With BMW badging, the $18k MSRP is more than a Versys 1000, V-Strom 1000, Africa Twin 1000, even the shaft-drive Super Tenere 1200. Something just doesn’t seem right here.

Due to age, I will need to downsize from the 1200 soon. Actual price of my next bike is not important but value is. The BMW community is important to me but the new 850’s do not seem a good option. Maybe I’ll just go back to an Airhead.

Hmmmm, an airhead might not be a bad plan. If you could just somehow modify the brakes and then there is the clunky transmissions found in airheads older than '81. I wonder what an older airhead tranny would do clunk wise if you gave it a shot of Motul 80w90 with moly gear lube? I know this stuff silenced the M93 trans in my '93 R1100RSL and improved smoothness 100%. I still prefer the dry clutch with the trans running in its own lubricant. And hey..if I want to adjust the valves no problem at all.

Oh, I do like the telelever front suspension especially after this weekend changing the fork oil in the FJR. Not a maintenance item in my BMW and the forks don't even have springs installed. Hmmmm..maybe an early oilhead would do the trick for you as well as an airhead.

Anyname · Nov 5, 2018

jammess said:
Hmmmm, an airhead might not be a bad plan. If you could just somehow modify the brakes and then there is the clunky transmissions found in airheads older than '81. I wonder what an older airhead tranny would do clunk wise if you gave it a shot of Motul 80w90 with moly gear lube? I know this stuff silenced the M93 trans in my '93 R1100RSL and improved smoothness 100%. I still prefer the dry clutch with the trans running in its own lubricant. And hey..if I want to adjust the valves no problem at all.

Oh, I do like the telelever front suspension especially after this weekend changing the fork oil in the FJR. Not a maintenance item in my BMW and the forks don't even have springs installed. Hmmmm..maybe an early oilhead would do the trick for you as well as an airhead.

I think that the oil head bikes were actually heavier than the 1200 Hex heads that replaced them. At least the early articles on the early R1200GS claimed that to be true.

shortythorne · Nov 5, 2018

martyhill said:
I wonder how many times you have visited Germany?

Dearest Marty,
I have never visited Germany. That is why I worded my comment as "from what I understand". I wanted to be clear about that for your benefit, as I wouldn't want you losing any sleep over it. :violin

lkchris · Nov 7, 2018

OldCamper said:
As a long time BMW enthusiast it is disappointing to see them sourcing engines and complete motorcycles from 3rd party suppliers known not for best quality, but lowest cost.
To add insult to injury BMW is maintaining their European price points on these new bikes AND their replacement parts.

Consider for example, if a Loncin copy of a Honda engine is “almost as good” as a real Honda but less than half the price, why should a Loncin copy of a BMW engine honestly be expected to be any different?

What am I missing here?

As an also long-time enthusiast, I think you're describing 310, 750, and 850 engines and corresponding bikes and to that I say who cares? BMW = boxer twin.

Also, I suppose you know that the K1600 engine is designed by Ricardo rather than BMW. That's a company older than BMW and with a reputation at least equal to BMW's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_plc

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