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Thread: BoosterPlug

  1. #16
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammess View Post
    PVC with Autotune?? I think the AF-XIED is a much simpler and cleaner install and there certainly is no cost advantage to this Power Commander lash up and no need to modify the fueling map.
    No need to modify a fueling map? What do you think the AF-XEID is doing?

    Yes the "lash up" (install) is a bit more but you get a lot more. Cleaner install, well I defy you to look at my bike and see any difference from stock. You can not.

    I would bet my PC 5 with auto tune against ANY fueling device out there now. Lets go to a dyno or even just to a fuel sniffer and see who is running on target AFR for RPM and Throttle Position. That is my biggest point is you have NO idea what target AFR you should be at and where because you have no clue how the bike responds with AFR over the RPM range and throttle position.

    You have no clue what AFR you are running anywhere.

    Yes easier install with the AF-XIED as I ran one before it really worked for LC bikes. I plotted with my GS-911 and saw it was not working and returned it and bought the PC 5. It appears that the AF-XEID works now and that is wonderful. For us to have choices is good.

    However we need to see if it is going to work on the new R 1250. The ability for me to move bike to bike is good. This is my second bike for the PC 5. I do see a Shift Cam in my future so again moving to a third bike is saving money.

    Roger is second to none in this field and I learned a heck of a lot from him with my time with the AF-XIED. I still read every post he makes on every forum he is on. I think the AF-XEID is a great easy solution for most but it is not the final or best solution for me.

    You do know I am reading true AFR with wide band O2 sensor right? I have a LCD screen that shows AFR to Throttle position to RPM. I do have a dyno tuned map. My fuel map auto corrects for changes in parts. For instance I just put a Remus 8 exhaust on my GS, it is changing the fueling tables to compensate for that. I have a set of headers on order and it will compensate for them as well.

    Not knocking your choice of tuners but there is more then one way to skin a cat. What works for you is great.


    Cost is not always a indicator of what you get, but results that are verifiable by gas analyzers are pretty conclusive. I am lucky and have a GREAT dyno guy in http://www.padyno.com/ who is Power Commander educated. He rocks and has a all but a brand new Dyno from DynoJet and knows how to use it.

    Regardless everyone is into things at different levels. I ran a Daytona Twin Tech fueling device on my 05 HD many years ago and that was a very involved device. It was fun learning. I had fun learning the AF-XEID and as I said I continue to learn from Rogers post's. I have a great time with the PC 5 and love making numbers on the dyno and seeing the results of it. I have a pretty lean cruising AFR of 14.2 in the 5 to 20% TPS which is cruising range. I am super fat at 12.8 at 75-100% which is WOT. Again all in what you want.

    BUT STAY AWAY from this joke of a Booster Plug!!!!!!!!! It is pure crap and over and over again it is proven the BMSK will adapt and overwrite any fueling the Booster Plug makes. It is like Ground Hog Day for your bike!

    Run what you like but the important thing is the bikes are lean. No two ways about it. Once you put a tuning device on and add fuel the difference is very noticeable.
    Lee
    2017.5 R 1200 GSW

  2. #17
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    An AF-XIED doesn't modify the fueling map, it shifts it by a set percentage. This isn't a fine point because BMW spent a lot of money working out the VE (volumetric efficiency) for each TPS/RPM combination in the ECU and the ignition advance to go along with those fueling targets. From extensive measurements with Wideband O2 sensors I've seen that BMW fueling during acceleration and at large throttle openings is reasonably rich. The problem I've measured is, and as we all know, that much of the cruise fueling (about 70% of it) is at lambda=1 (about 14.7:1) which is fairly lean and not the best fueling for performance in the cruising parts of the map, where many of these bikes feel a bit anemic.

    As you know, I've installed Wideband O2 sensors ahead of the catalytic converter for accuracy, and measured and plotted many BMW motorcycles we as a community have a good idea how these bikes are fueled at the full range of TPS/RPM combinations both in stock configuration and after shifting the O2 sensors. So it is wrong to say that "You have no clue what AFR you are running anywhere."

    Shifting the cruise fueling by a few percent makes a great difference. You've got yours set at 14.2:1 through the Power Commander V w/Autotune and those of us with AF-XIEDs and LC-2s set it between there and 13.5:1. The exact setting is a matter of personal preference. The AF-XIED accomplishes that shift very elegantly by modifying the O2 sensor signal and therefore keeping the BMW ECU fully in the loop and doing all the best things it's good at.

    I have no real issue with the PCV w/Autotune. It gives the rider/mechanic enormous flexibility to set AFR targets, the initial fueling tables and to use Autotune to "perfect" the initial fueling to meet the AFR targets. It's flexibility is also part of its challenge: you have to set initial fueling targets, you have to have the knowledge to set AFR targets and then you've got to evaluate what Autotune learns to make sure that it seems reasonable (I've seen many auto tune examples where adjacent cells have grossly different fine tune settings, which were in error). If you enjoy that effort and don't mind adding a fuel controller and an autotune controller and intercepting the TPS cable, the fuel injector cable(s), replacing both stock O2 sensors with Wideband O2, and you're okay with disabling many of the good functions in the BMW ECU, the the PCV w/Autotune can be a fun project.

  3. #18
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Roger no dog in the fight but a few things. First it is semantics for you to say your product does not change the fueling map. Shifting is changing. You fool the voltage to make the o2 run richer in turn building a richer map or shifting as you say.

    Keeping the BMSK in the loop? Keeping it doing what it does best? Not sure what you mean but reading a fueling table and instructing a injector to open or close is all it does. While yours is based on a voltage, mine is based on a dyno tune telling a wideband 02 sensor to set a ARF and making it so.

    You do not have any idea what each and every bike is doing with AFR ratio. You assume your device is moving or shifting(changing) the AFR but have no way of proofing that is so, on every bike at every TPS and RPM. It is assumed.

    Again I ran your product it did not work. It did not work for over a year.

    The next update BMW does to the BMSK may render your product useless, again.

    With the new Shift Cam and Euro 5 coming I would bet there is going to be some changes in software that will affect fueling and again O2 timing.

    I always enjoy reading your writings but you have moved from a guy who was open and pioneered LC 1 tuning of O2 sensors on BMW to a guy who is always selling your product on every answer you make. And while you finally admit the PC V has merit you still want to make it out to be some horrid beast to install and "disabling" the best part of the ECU, and use wording to try and say your product does not alter both short and long term maps. It is all it does. It is relying on voltage to make the AFR. That is some kind of snake oil salesman talk that I never expected from you.

    Again I ran one of your product and it did not work. It was a YEAR before it did. It could be the next BMW software update where it will not. Then what? Another year of waiting? Another add on module?

    Both products have merit as you say and I will always say that for sure. But the PC 5 works on a sound principle of sensing and adjusting AFR through a wide band O2 sensor sampling a live AFR stream.


    Yes I have to screw in two wideband O2 sensors, no big deal. Yes I have to put a posi tap on the throttle servo wire no big deal. The system does so much more then the one you offer it is worth it to me. Again that is the big thing what effort do you want to put forth? However IMHO the gains in performance and accuracy, and the ability to tune my motor are well worth the effort.

    But now I have a system that KNOWS it is running a specific AFR at any given range of TPS or RPM. This is a absolute fact. And the PC 5 changes to every motors tendencies and it's AFR, not a set voltage to a set AFR no matter what the individual motor characteristics are. Your product is responding to voltage. The PC 5 is responding to AFR which IMHO is a much more accurate way of running a motor.

    And once we bring the dyno tune into the mix the PC V far surpasses the ability of your product.

    Not going to engage you again on this but you have changed over the years from the guy who pioneered the LC-1 tuning on BMW to the salesmen who sees and sells nothing but his own product. Pretty sad that money or a interest in a product has taken your ability to admit the virtues of another product, and try and make it seem less then your product. You know better.
    Lee
    2017.5 R 1200 GSW

  4. #19
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Ouch Lee, that's an awfully long rebuttal for someone who "doesn't have a dog in the fight". I'm going to assume that you were having a bad night at 2am when you made the post. I would have thought such a personally directed post was beneath you. However, what you wrote contains many factual errors that I need to correct.

    Here they are:

    1. Neither the Nightrider AF-XIED or the Innovate Motorsports are my products. I didn't design them, I don't manufacture them and I don't sell them. My role was simple, I used the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 on my personal R1150RT to shift the lambda sensor output. When it turned out that implementing the LC-1 was too difficult for most other riders, I searched for and persuaded Nightrider to modify their AF-XIED for Harley Davidsons (their main line of business) and build an AF-XIED for BMW so that lambda-shifting technology was more easily available. You are wrong to use the phrase "your product", these aren't mine.

    2. I'm not sure what you have against salesmen, but I'm not one. I have spent hundreds of hours testing and logging actual on-the-road data for LC-1, LC-2, AF-XIED, Techlusion/Dobeck, BoosterPlug, IICE Air, and PowerCommander products. I have mainly been interested in seeing which products do what they say (many don't) and in getting my personal bikes to run the best they can.

    3. Neither the LC-1, LC-2 or AF-XIED "fool the voltage". That's not how Lambda Shifting works. What they do is use a microprocessor to alter the timing of the O2 sensor's transition from rich-to-lean and lean-to-rich which commands the Motronic, BMSK or BMSX to produce richer fueling.

    4. The AF-XIED currently works on all R, K, and F BMW motorcycles built after 1995. For about a year, the AF-XIED functioned correctly with the R1200LC bikes but BMW introduced a new O2 sensor validation test that locked out the O2 sensor path when an AF-XIED was connected. Once that error was cleared by Nightriders addition of the RAM module, the AF-XIED functioned without modification. Nightrider considered dropping the AF-XIED for the liquid cooled bikes but Barry (a rider in GA) and myself volunteered to ferret out how BMW was testing the O2 so a workaround could be developed. Hat's off to Barry who had both an R1200GSA and R1200RT and who put countless hours into finding the problem. I believe it is highly likely that the AF-XIED will work as designed with the R1250.

    5. The AFR profile is known for our each of our bikes (that have not been seriously modified) without putting them on a dyno. Because the Motronic, BMSK and particularly the BMSX on newer bikes have extensive Additive and Multiplicative Long Term Trims that align the fueling to the design objective of the motorcycle. I have measured many bikes using LC-1 and LC-2 Wideband O2 sensors and the fueling is amazingly consistent for bikes that aren't broken, misadjusted or heavily modified. For anyone who wants to see the detailed AFR measurements, they're in several forums and I'd be happy to provide the links.

    Today's a fresh day Lee, take a deep breath, have a cup of coffee and enjoy it.
    Last edited by roger 04 rt; 11-09-2018 at 02:31 PM.

  5. #20
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Morning Lee,
    I've never used the AF-XIED only the LC-1 and later the LC-2 presently use an LC-2 on my '93RS. You should maybe go back and re-read some of the older posts on this subject. Only point i was trying to make is the AF-XIED is simpler, easier, and cleaner to install than a Power Commander and it works. I prefer the LC-2 since it's cheaper (Amazon) and allows one to view the actual AFR in realtime. Of course I only need one LC-2 with wideband sensor on my oilhead but for simplicity and cleanliness I would go AF-XIED on the wethead rather than two LC-2s. Either system is all you need.

    Enjoy your morning coffee.

    I just thought of something. Lee, you must not have been aware or realized the LC-1 or LC-2 uses a wideband O2 sensor and allows one to visually watch the AFR in realtime on one's laptop hence your post at 2AM. Hey, maybe try some melatonin to help you sleep?
    Last edited by jammess; 11-09-2018 at 03:49 PM.
    Jammess

    '93 R1100RSL, '10 FJR1300A
    MOA # 50714

  6. #21
    These FI enrichening devices seem popular mainly with BMW and HD. How do the Japanese get their FI to work so well, or is it their owners just donít care?
    My Gl1800 never had a hiccup, but the R1200 seems to run too lean. Maybe a multi/twin difference?
    -I just wanna ride on my motor sickle-

  7. #22
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    1. No problem
    2. OK
    3. Again semantics, you are using some type of trickery to fool the O2 sensor. If it is a voltage regulation, or a computer algorithm you are in fact "fooling" or commanding the BMSK to write something that is not true, and solely based on your computers program.
    4. Yes it works now after over a year of not working. And you are not being truthful or at least overly optimistic if you believe BMW will not change software and fueling for Euro 5.
    5. While you can show like results on samples of motors it is not every motor and no way to know it is doing the same thing to every motor. Even plotting them with the GS-911 will show differences.


    Yes I was harsh it was late.

    Your post just struck me as snobbish and like you see or can not admit a PC V is a very nice tuner and the product you help bring to market it the best and only solution. It is not the first time I mentioned a PC V to have you talk down on it or try to promote this device over it. So while you say it is not yours your answers are always as if it is your product.

    Is it all but idiot proof for users to install and use yes the AF-XEID is. However what is happening and how do you know? It is all blinking lights and perceived feel upon riding. Yes you say if it blinks 3 times you are at 3.9 AFR or whatever the scale may be. How does one know what that is doing for the bike other then by the perceived feel of the rider? Well you need to plot it with a GS-911.

    I do know and believe you know your field and IMHO are an expert in it. I trust you. It is just you seem to push the PC V under the rug every time it is mentioned especially in regards to this device you have no monetary or vested interest in. And to me that smacks of you having a vested interest in it.

    And I absolute hate you using semantics or play on words. Using a computer algorithm to stipulate a parameter is fooling that parameter. Command and Write are the same thing, you are writing the fuel map in the BMSK in turn fooling, or computer generating, or whatever you want to call it, the AFR.

    I have more than once recommend the AF-XEID on more then one forum on more then a few posts. In fact I just made mention of it on ADV Rider as another choice to a PC V to get people to fuel these bikes. It is not that I have a bias or anything against the AF-XEID in fact if I did not have a PC V it would be my choice of tuner.

    I have a problem with what always seems a negative from you at the mention of a PC V.

    IMHO it is a far more accurate way of getting a correct AFR on a motorcycle. Especially when one goes to headers and free flowing exhaust can and more free flowing intakes. And nothing rivals it after it has been tuned on a dyno.

    As you said it is how involved someone want's to be. I was going to use the LC 2 after reading your experiences with the LC 1 on older posts. I decided I did not want to invest the time to learn the LC 2 device and chose the PC V. The PC V with Auto Tune was built in two boxes and 2 wideband O2 sensors and a LCD display to show me what is going on at all times. You do not need a degree to install it and it pretty strait forward to set up. And customer support is second to none from DynoJet. They will dial into your computer and work on your bike with you if you need them to. That is very reassuring.

    My intent was not to insult your intellect or knowlage on the subject, just your tone and your apparent anti anything not AF-XEID.

    Regardless these bike need fuel so anyway you can get some fuel to them.

    Oh well I have had coffee and life is good.
    Lee
    2017.5 R 1200 GSW

  8. #23
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Evening Lee, Me thinks maybe you should think about adding something a bit stronger to that coffee. I'm just suggesting.

    Hmmm...on second thought maybe you already have?
    Jammess

    '93 R1100RSL, '10 FJR1300A
    MOA # 50714

  9. #24
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammess View Post
    Evening Lee, Me thinks maybe you should think about adding something a bit stronger to that coffee. I'm just suggesting.

    Hmmm...on second thought maybe you already have?

    Some Knob Creek was in order for sure
    Lee
    2017.5 R 1200 GSW

  10. #25
    Registered User littlebriar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCamper View Post
    These FI enrichening devices seem popular mainly with BMW and HD. How do the Japanese get their FI to work so well, or is it their owners just don’t care?
    My Gl1800 never had a hiccup, but the R1200 seems to run too lean. Maybe a multi/twin difference?
    I have a '17 Yamaha FZ-07 twin naked bike. The fuel mapping was horrible. The throttle response was like a toggle switch. After researching the issue I discovered it's a common complaint with newer bikes. Several vendors offer an ECU reflash service to provide new fuel map. You simply mail your unit in and a couple days later, it's back. Tunes are available for aftermarket exhaust, intake, engine braking, etc. One guy offers lifetime free reflashes if you modify your bike later on. The lifetime service is $315. First flash return shipping is free.

    I went with an autotune unit that works similar to AF-XEID but it also connects to a computer to save tunes or manually modify. Add an aftermarket exhaust, ride the bike for a tankful and magically, bike runs great.
    Last edited by littlebriar; 11-10-2018 at 02:22 PM.
    Steve
    MOA #208308
    2016 R1200RT San Marino Blue Metalic,
    2017 Yamaha FZ-07

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