more ethanol content

Got the AMA renewal today, guess I'll pony up because they're the bike lobby when it comes to E15. Although there are many complaints about what they sanction, voting for a correct candidate doesn't help much when pro or con political views can rise and fall at the drop of a hat, into the ring. Motorcyclists have had a dog in this oxygenate thing but we traditionally sat on our bikes and enjoyed the ride. Eventually everything gets political. BMWMOA could lobby but our dues and lottery fees are already allocated to other things. We could allocate ten percent of whatever to the AMA. Or just ban political discussions.

Political discussions ARE already banned AFAIK. But some seem to enjoy a short life here anyway if the topic somehow relates to motorcycling. Until someone gets carried away of course. As a Canadian who travels to several US rallies every year up and down the western states I notice that I can find ethanol free gas in limited areas of Washington and NONE in California. Oregon however is a haven of non ethanol gas and I get the best mileage and performance at higher altitudes especially in the outback of Oregon. My motorcycles just LOVE Oregon, and so do I.

We used to talk about this stuff all the time at rallies but in 2017 a lot of those friendly discussions became very polarized and politicized. This past summer virtually no one talked about ethanol because it had gotten way too political. Politics have become so polarized that now that even just bit**ing about Ethanol has become a taboo subject.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. The best ideas and the ability to understand other people's views comes from civil and healthy debate while respecting other's points of view was the key ingredient to learning. Obviously folks who rely on farming corn will have a very different view than city dwellers who complain about gas prices and ethanol ruining their old cars and bikes. That is fine and we should all strive to at least entertain other points of view even though we do not necessarily agree.

This past summer I noticed that civil discourse on any topic involving politics was invisible. The discomfort people feel when a topic that might get political comes up around the "campfire" was palpable. Everyone just clams up. I think this is the result of very intense polarization our society is going through right now. It's a shame really and history teaches us this type of social environment never ever leads to good things down the road.

Well, that and I couldn't get a good ethanol discussion going no matter how hard I tried!

This latest political ploy is permission, not mandate.

There is no particular incentive to replace E10 with E15.

There is always lots of talk about how bad ethanol is, reduced energy content, etc., but most overlook the fact that in order for gasoline to have high octane--anti knock properties to go along with high compression--an additive to basic gasoline is required. Since tetraethyl lead and MTBE are now illegal, all that's left is ethanol. Low compression engines are basically irrelevant to anyone running German cars or motorcycles and therefore use of premium fuel is the driving force. You're going to need some ethanol.

Just about everything has political “overtones”. When the outright political blame, name calling, hate and insults against other Members views start is when the thread is threatened.
We have a good group and hope everyone can take care and keep things civil.
The Mod Team.

There is an incentive to get more E15 into the market--the "blend wall". The EPA sets the mandate for how much ethanol must be blended into the fuel supply each year. Given the annual fuel consumption in the US at the present time, the EPA mandate can not be achieved with E10 alone. Thus the push for E15. Yes, we already have E85 in the market place to help with the EPA compliance. But, it hasn't taken off due to pricing. At the stations I frequent that sell E85, I have never seen a vehicle fueling up with the stuff.

lkchris said:

This latest political ploy is permission, not mandate.

There is no particular incentive to replace E10 with E15.

There is always lots of talk about how bad ethanol is, reduced energy content, etc., but most overlook the fact that in order for gasoline to have high octane--anti knock properties to go along with high compression--an additive to basic gasoline is required. Since tetraethyl lead and MTBE are now illegal, all that's left is ethanol. Low compression engines are basically irrelevant to anyone running German cars or motorcycles and therefore use of premium fuel is the driving force. You're going to need some ethanol.

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This does not seem to be accurate based on what is available in west central Montana. The only grade of fuel that is ethanol free here is the Premium grade.

If anyone is a Babylon 5 fan you might remember the first season where Garibaldi put together a 1992 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-11 and Lennier winds up in the end putting a non- combustible fuel source into the bike.

The concept is this: is there a fuel source that would make everyone happy that could be converted to any IC engine? This includes deisel?

Or are we at the mercy of carbonized dinosaurs?

lkchris said:

This latest political ploy is permission, not mandate.

There is no particular incentive to replace E10 with E15.

There is always lots of talk about how bad ethanol is, reduced energy content, etc., but most overlook the fact that in order for gasoline to have high octane--anti knock properties to go along with high compression--an additive to basic gasoline is required. Since tetraethyl lead and MTBE are now illegal, all that's left is ethanol. Low compression engines are basically irrelevant to anyone running German cars or motorcycles and therefore use of premium fuel is the driving force. You're going to need some ethanol.

Click to expand...

Actually, no. It’s only a question of high how up the cat cracker you want to tap off gasoline—the refineries can tap off any octane you’d like to have. It’s just a matter of the public being willing to pay for it. And even then, the refineries can add isobutane to increase the octane of a base level gasoline. Again, for a price.

The concept of additives primarily for octane boosting has roots in the poor quality gasolines in the early part of the last century coupled with the availability of tetraethyl lead, a compound known even then to be highly toxic—but extremely profitable. Then came unleaded gasoline and the valve issues it introduced, followed closely by MTBE when places like Denver and urban areas of California and other states pressed for oxygenation in fuels to help reduce pollution. MTBE had its own problems (toxic, but not rated as carcinogenic) in part from being run through vehicles incapable of anything resembling high-efficiency combustion, but largely from being leaked into the ground via leaky gas station tanks. Governments and citizens alike went ape-s*** over the MTBE issue and in the search for an affordable and readily available oxygenator ethyl alcohol won out. Ecological impacts and market or production-planning costs and impacts weren’t adequately factored in and so you have today’s mess. Not surprising, given that both industry and government seem to have lost the ability to think or plan beyond the next quarterly statement.

So anyway, we need octane—but the refineries could give us that. We need solutions for cleaner and higher-efficiency IC engines, and while that might include oxygenated fuels that should be only a stop-gap measure. There has to be a better way, something less destructive in both short and long terms. But, the current powers-that-be are essentially telling us to party like it’s 1999 when it comes to fuels, emissions, and transportation. And given world population trends, maybe they are right—enjoy it while it lasts. Gaia will have both the last word and the last laugh.

IMHO, of course.

Best,
DG

Might as well just go electric... and let the producers worry about the fuel source?

A town with NO Ethanol in the pumps?

A little bit off the current discussion:

This summer I came through Hastings, NE. While I rolled into town I saw a bunch of factories for Ethanol - big ones. Ah, here is where the Ethanol comes from. I had to fill up gas, mid or high grade. The first three gas station only offered low grade Ethanol free gas and nothing else. Asked a local and he pointed me to one of two gas stations in town he knew which had high grade gas. Sure enough, high grade Ethanol free and low grade without Ethanol and nothing else.

Leaving Hastings I thought about this. A town where obviously a lot of Ethanol is produced doesn't allow it in their own town's gas stations? If that would be true - WEIRD!

/Guenther

Back to the disadvantages of alcohol in gas, I'm partial to lawn equipment with Honda engines. I've got a Toro mower with a Honda engine, a Honda generator, Simpson pressure washer with a Honda engine, and a Honda string trimmer with a 4 stroke engine.

All the owner's manuals say they will not warranty damage caused by alcohol in the gas, and if you must use gas with it, keep it to 10%. Since I normally get long service out of my equipment, I head the warnings carefully. My last Toro mower with a Suzuki two stroke engine was 25 years old and still running good when I retired it because I could no longer get parts for the mower deck.

I do wish we could get alcohol free gas for older motorcycles and our lawn/farm equipment. As others have said, it does not make sense to me to raise grain, only to convert to alcohol to burn, when there seems to be an abundance of oil right now. Electrical vehicles are still away off, and the battery powered lawn equipment, although is getting better, still cannot handle some chores.

Wayne

Wayne--the pure-gas.org website shows lots of stations in your state (Florida) with ethanol free gasoline.

swall said:

Wayne--the pure-gas.org website shows lots of stations in your state (Florida) with ethanol free gasoline.

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Like many things user generated or augmented this site is sometimes wrong: either due to misinformation or to a station changing what it sells. I find it useful but not ironclad so if it matters to you look carefully at the pump when you get there. Except in places like Kansas where the state in its typical wisdom removed the requirement that E10 had to be labeled. Some stations still do it because of corporate policy. Others gleefully took the tags off the pumps at their earliest opportunity. Transparency at its finest.

It is all an agribusiness driven scam. Not the farmers really. Try Cargill, Monsanto (now Bayer, the aspirin folks) and Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) among others. Oh, and don't forget Senator Coal Dust (Kentucky) and Senator Corncob (Iowa) for their staunch support of ruining engines.

Trust but verify--get a test kit and test the fuel from a station listed as having ethanol free gas.

PGlaves said:

Like many things user generated or augmented this site is sometimes wrong: either due to misinformation or to a station changing what it sells. I find it useful but not ironclad so if it matters to you look carefully at the pump when you get there. Except in places like Kansas where the state in its typical wisdom removed the requirement that E10 had to be labeled. Some stations still do it because of corporate policy. Others gleefully took the tags off the pumps at their earliest opportunity. Transparency at its finest.

It is all an agribusiness driven scam. Not the farmers really. Try Cargill, Monsanto (now Bayer, the aspirin folks) and Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) among others. Oh, and don't forget Senator Coal Dust (Kentucky) and Senator Corncob (Iowa) for their staunch support of ruining engines.

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That's a pretty lucid post there sir.

swall said:

Wayne--the pure-gas.org website shows lots of stations in your state (Florida) with ethanol free gasoline.

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Thanks. I had not seen that site before.

Wayne

unfortunately

PGlaves said:

Figure out who supports the ethanol scam and VOTE them out of office.

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That would be all of them. Not a bad idea!