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Thread: more ethanol content

  1. #16
    Ok.. on a slightly more serious note.

    People need to remember that this isn't about specifically the politicians.
    Most (on both sides I might add) become beholden to Special Interests.
    (Plato complained about this also).
    The Ethanol industry is huge in money and can afford the lobbyists.

    I seem to remember the anti-lobbying side of Newts side AND C. Shulmer! And look at that voting record!

    The problem is the industry like so many others that push the special interests against the people.
    The irony is that some SI groups actually fight for individuals whereas the politicians would then follow a diff. course from the will of the people. So its a minefield of trouble any way you cut it. Frankly I have no desire to be in politics and I wonder how some politicians feel after they have street-walker'ed themselves out.

    Plus.. what IS the will of the people.
    The US anyway is currently about 50-50 split on most issues. Walk THAT line.

    As for the ethanol aspect in of itself, someone will find a way to adapt.
    Ergo: make new components for older machines for the E15 stuff and make bank. at least for the popular models. That's capitalism.

  2. #17
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    For those that don't know there is www.pure-gas.org or you can visit us here in good ol' Flo-town (Florence) where there is two stations within a half mile of each other that sell non-ethanol with one station even offering high octane aviation gasoline so no shortage of the good stuff here abouts.
    Jammess

    '93 R1100RSL, '10 FJR1300A
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  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by soocom1 View Post
    Well back to the topic...

    The grand irony of the EPA fuel mileage and Ethanol is the contradiction of the two.
    Ethanol has much less energy per volume than gasoline.
    That means that it takes MORE fuel to do the same amount of work than gasoline. The end result is predictable.
    Higher Ethanol content will bring lower mileage and higher repair costs due to the higher temperatures of the exhaust.
    And the cost to produce it is equal to gasoline. Diminishing returns for a fuel that creates less energy.

  4. #19
    Watch This!!! junkjohn's Avatar
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    So I just looked on the pure gas site, and found in my home town in Taxachusetts I can purchase 5 gals. of this (normal) fuel for a mere $75.00 at the local lawnmower shop. It reminds me of when I worked in the Dallas - Ft. Worth area and people would ask "Why Y'all live there?"
    John Simonds
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  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by junkjohn View Post
    So I just looked on the pure gas site, and found in my home town in Taxachusetts I can purchase 5 gals. of this (normal) fuel for a mere $75.00 at the local lawnmower shop. It reminds me of when I worked in the Dallas - Ft. Worth area and people would ask "Why Y'all live there?"
    Same here, there's a place 5 miles from me that sells it, but you have to take it in gas cans, you can't fill the bike up at a pump. Pricey is an understatement, and not a viable option. Especially when on a trip on the road around the country. One guy I know buys 5 gallons at a time and uses 1/2 gallon per tank of gas, his bike runs like crap otherwise.

    And the guy from Florence Oregon? If he stays local only, that's great, but what of those who don't, they're sheet out of luck?
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  6. #21
    SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    Around these parts the majority of stations sell ethanol free premium.
    Kevin Huddy
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  7. #22
    Debbie's Servant Lee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    Around these parts the majority of stations sell ethanol free premium.
    Not hard to find 91 AKI ethanol free and 87 AKI ethanol free here in Iowa.
    Lee
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  8. #23
    Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat Omega Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junkjohn View Post
    So I just looked on the pure gas site, and found in my home town in Taxachusetts I can purchase 5 gals. of this (normal) fuel for a mere $75.00 at the local lawnmower shop. It reminds me of when I worked in the Dallas - Ft. Worth area and people would ask "Why Y'all live there?"
    Columbus energy near Sekonk Speedway has racing fuel at $10/gal. I usually get a 5 gal container for emergencies and a 5 gal container to use with 2-stroke engines- when they are going to storage or occasional use.
    OM
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  9. #24
    Back to one of the basic questions: "What gets damaged?"

    Not an exhaustive list but here are a few things. Airhead carb floats, fuel lines, and carb diaphragms. Since ethanol attracts water if it sits it can damage fuel tanks. Bing does have alcohol resistant floats for E10.

    Classic K bikes - ditto fuel tank damage. The biggest problem is it turns fuel pump mounts to mush which can then foul the fuel pump and injectors. This can be a $1,000 problem. Bob's BMW has aftermarket mounts that are alcohol resistant to E10.

    Oilheads - seem fairly resistant to damage from E10 although the same issues as for other bikes crop up on models with metal fuel tanks such as the R1150R.

    Later bikes? I have no idea. Others need to add to this list.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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  10. #25
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Consider some possible positives. Maybe more universal presence of E15 for newer vehicles will tend to bring back E0 fuel since so many older vehicles that could get by with E10 will get indigestion from E15. In other words, the demand for E0 in an all-E15 society would increase. Remember the producers are just trying to somehow get rid of a certain amount of mandated & subsidized ethanol. The subsidy money comes from the market's premium price of E0.

    Or is ethanol blended in at the local pumps?
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Back to one of the basic questions: "What gets damaged?"

    Not an exhaustive list but here are a few things. Airhead carb floats, fuel lines, and carb diaphragms. Since ethanol attracts water if it sits it can damage fuel tanks. Bing does have alcohol resistant floats for E10.

    Classic K bikes - ditto fuel tank damage. The biggest problem is it turns fuel pump mounts to mush which can then foul the fuel pump and injectors. This can be a $1,000 problem. Bob's BMW has aftermarket mounts that are alcohol resistant to E10.

    Oilheads - seem fairly resistant to damage from E10 although the same issues as for other bikes crop up on models with metal fuel tanks such as the R1150R.

    Later bikes? I have no idea. Others need to add to this list.
    Now remember that there is the Knock issue and combustion temps and pressures.

    Not a bad thing by many standards, but remember that older engines were designed for non-ethanol fuels specially pre-1990's.

    Older gas engines use to work off of 90+ octane pre-emission days.


    for those confused, older engines actually worked off of higher compression ratios pre-emmission days because of the high temps from raw gasoline.
    When the additives came in (not including lead) the ratings actually dropped for years because of the EGR issues and other factors.
    Then as the designs for the emissions grew, so too did the ability to up the octane.

    E15 may or may not have an overall effect on the combustion, but at least seats (post 1980) should be hardened and take the lead free stuff with no issue, but there could theoretically be a timing issue if the E15 turns out to be a hotter or colder burn.

  12. #27
    Registered User GTRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglojaxon View Post
    And the cost to produce it is equal to gasoline. Diminishing returns for a fuel that creates less energy.
    It isn’t just the output energy difference, it’s the input as well for what is a horribly inefficient production process. Fuel, fertilizer, labor, and semi-fixed overhead costs used to grow corn only to process it into alcohol. Then factor in the environmental impacts from marginal land, land that in many cases used to be prairie grass pasture, being tilled and put unto service growing corn, with the final kicker being the reduction in crop rotation practices to a simple three-crop rotation: corn, wheat, and soybeans. And if the market or subsidy payments dictate, the rotation gets over-ridden and the same crop planted in a field two years in a row. I’ve seen this unfold first-hand on the rental farmland I manage for my family.

    There is no doubt about the need for oxygenation in modern-day fuels, to help with emissions reduction. Octane-boosting via alcohol is just a cover for cost-cutting and profitability by the big-oil refineries, who are quite capable of producing any octane level we’d buy. But the price would, of course, be higher—especially when compared against the artificially-low subsidized price of alcohol-laden fuel. So if you really want to see change in the present system you could start by seeking out and purchasing alcohol-free fuel at every opportunity (http://www.pure-gas.org). I do it every chance I get, even when traveling.

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    DG
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  13. #28
    Nrpetersen--the ethanol is blended at the terminal where the tank trucks fill up.

  14. #29
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    swall - THX...

    If you can tolerate the reduction in octane, ethanol can always be removed by washing the mix with a modest amount of water, allow to settle, & then draining the water-ethanol mix out. Toss the mix back into the environment. They put it there, they can take it back..........

    This works for small engines which have modest octane requirements. I have not tried it with M/C engines.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  15. #30
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    Around these parts the majority of stations sell ethanol free premium.
    If I remember correctly all Sinclair stations in Montana sell non-ethanol premium at least that was true the last time I was up that way when I took possession of my new to me FJR1300A in Kalispell, MT.

    Lucky me I have a commercial fuel card that gives me access to card lock stations that sell non-ethanol with self serve pumps no less. About the only way you're going to dispense your own fuel in Oregon since there are no self service stations here. Don't ask how I came by a commercial account. A lot of folks use non-ethanol here in their boats.
    Jammess

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