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Thread: more ethanol content

  1. #31
    Registered User Anyname's Avatar
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    Trump made this decision to curry votes in midwestern states impacted by his trade wars (sorry if this is getting into politics, but that's what E15 is all about). I don't know if he actually has the ability to force fuel companies to sell E15. That might take an act of congress. Last I knew, ethanol was more expensive that the normal components of gasoline, so there is no economic incentive for either fuel companies or consumers to push for E15. If it's not mandated, it won't happen. There has also been pushback on Trump's E15 from both consumers and business interests.
    BMW R bike rider, horizontally opposed to everything...

  2. #32
    Registered User GTRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swall View Post
    Nrpetersen--the ethanol is blended at the terminal where the tank trucks fill up.
    For most E10, yes. But “blender pumps” are being pushed as the pathway to selling E20-E85 blends, especially for stations with existing pump and tank infrastructure. My guess is that much like existing pumps of today, the first few tenths you pump would be whatever mix was last purchased, so your E10 or E15 could be juiced a little. Not a problem for cars or pickups with larger tanks and purchases, but an issue with small-tank vehicles like motorcycles.

    Best,
    DG
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  3. #33
    Watch This!!! junkjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anyname View Post
    Trump made this decision to curry votes in midwestern states impacted by his trade wars (sorry if this is getting into politics, but that's what E15 is all about). I don't know if he actually has the ability to force fuel companies to sell E15. That might take an act of congress. Last I knew, ethanol was more expensive that the normal components of gasoline, so there is no economic incentive for either fuel companies or consumers to push for E15. If it's not mandated, it won't happen. There has also been pushback on Trump's E15 from both consumers and business interests.
    Henry Ford uses ethanol to power 1908 Model T.
    The US became the largest producer of ethanol in 2005.
    Dec. 2007 Energy Independence and Security Act. Signed by congress and then Pres. Bush.
    Obama administration set goal of 10,000 blender pumps nation wide by 2015.
    2018 Trumps fault.
    John Simonds
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  4. #34
    Debbie's Servant Lee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider View Post
    Then factor in the environmental impacts from marginal land, land that in many cases used to be prairie grass pasture, being tilled and put unto service growing corn,
    Best,
    DG
    In hilly southern Iowa we had a lot of pasture and hay ground. A lot of that grassland is now crop ground.
    Even with conservation practices it's hard to control soil erosion on steep slopes in crop fields.
    Lee
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  5. #35
    GTRider--The "blender pumps" I have encountered are more appropriately called "selector pumps". A single pump dispenses fuel from two or more tanks. If you want E0, you select that grade and it gets pumped from the E0 tank. If you select E10 or E15, that grade comes from the tank containing the appropriate grade. Of course, residual fuel remains in the dispensing hose and if you select E0 and the last guy selected E10, you will end up with some ethanol in your fuel. The only way around this is to get a test kit and test the fuel. This is not practical to do "on the fly". What I do, is pump fuel into a 5 gallon container and test the ethanol content when get home before I dump it into my R90S. Here in central Indiana, I buy E0 fuel from 4 stations. The presence or absence of ethanol is not listed on their pumps, so I am never sure of what I have until I do the test. Hypothetically--if a station wanted to add their own ethanol, they would have to get a RIN number from the EPA and then comply with the tracking mandates of the Reformulated Fuels Standard.

  6. #36
    Registered User RIDERR1150GSADV's Avatar
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    Only morons will grow a food resource at great expense (water anyone?) and then proceed to burn it as fuel, under the misguided notion that it is good for the environment.
    Like already previously mentioned, the higher the ethanol content in gas, the lower the MPG's will be for any given vehicle. If you don't believe that, just run a few tankful's of non ethanol gas and see what happens with the MPG's in your vehicle.. YMMV
    MOA # 108516
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  7. #37
    Running pure gasoline in modern engines is actually not very advisable due to the combustion pressures, timing, etc.

    I agree with the overall assessment that everyone is giving, but remember that this was started not as an individualistic aspect of running a specific flammable fuel in an internal combustion engine as it was political in nature.

    Politics and government (go to the definition of government... meaning a body that governs, governs means to control or limit) and then apply that concept to the legislation.
    Ergo: legislation is designed to control movement of something and limit its effects. Rather than deal with the heave and hoe of daily routine, its designed to be a measured process.

    This is in fact only legislation that mandates use of something. All intended to carry the masses and solve a problem that has its roots in a fallacy to begin with.

    E15 is a solution looking for a problem but it is viable if an industry is designed to adapt to it rather than force it. (A fav. tactic of the politicos).

  8. #38
    Registered User GTRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swall View Post
    GTRider--The "blender pumps" I have encountered are more appropriately called "selector pumps". A single pump dispenses fuel from two or more tanks. If you want E0, you select that grade and it gets pumped from the E0 tank. If you select E10 or E15, that grade comes from the tank containing the appropriate grade. Of course, residual fuel remains in the dispensing hose and if you select E0 and the last guy selected E10, you will end up with some ethanol in your fuel. The only way around this is to get a test kit and test the fuel. This is not practical to do "on the fly". What I do, is pump fuel into a 5 gallon container and test the ethanol content when get home before I dump it into my R90S. Here in central Indiana, I buy E0 fuel from 4 stations. The presence or absence of ethanol is not listed on their pumps, so I am never sure of what I have until I do the test. Hypothetically--if a station wanted to add their own ethanol, they would have to get a RIN number from the EPA and then comply with the tracking mandates of the Reformulated Fuels Standard.
    Yes, there is no “pure ethanol” tank at the station—ATF would have fun with that one! Blender pumps work the same way they always have, by mixing in pre-determined proportion fuels from two or more tanks. That is how three options—regular, mid-grade, and premium—have been dispensed from single-hose pumps for decades.

    Likewise, it is now possible to see blender pumps where flex-fuel mixes between E25 and E85 can be delivered from a single hose. The pump delivers an on-site mix drawn from the E10 and E85 tanks, so roughly the first 0.2-0.3gallons can be whatever mix the last purchaser used. Regulators are probably not too enthused, as “accurate at all deliveries and pressures” might have to extend to the E-mix as well as the volume. I would think that a bit harder to pin down than the simple octane rating of a mid-grade blend of pure gasoline. The ethanol crowd loves the concept of these pumps as a way to increase ethanol usage.

    The original E-blender pumps were developed back where I used to live, in the Dakotas. On a trip back there this spring I encountered one station with 5 nozzles at the pump, including blender options—but no ethanol-free fuel. I whipped out my phone, checked Pure Gas, and motored to a different station. But you’re right, it is often difficult and cumbersome to find non-ethanol fuels when traveling.

    I am surprised that you can buy in your locale gasohol blends that are not clearly labeled as such-I thought such labeling was a requirement under the original acts or legislation that started this entire alcohol insanity.

    Best,
    DG

    PS: just ran across this, which seems to indicate a direction toward actual blending of gas and ethanol right at the pump. Don’t know if any like this are in service yet, tho—will have to dig a bit more.
    http://www.byoethanol.com/how-they-work.html
    Last edited by GTRider; 10-12-2018 at 05:08 PM. Reason: Additional info
    DGerber
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  9. #39
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    Closest pure gas here sells for around $3.10 per gallon, which I use in yard equipment and two bikes. If on a longer trip, gonna have to run ethanol until you can get back to some pure gas, especially for the airheads. And never ever leave ethanol in tanks over winter. Dry tanks hanging on a hook are best. Treated gas better. I get five gallons of pure and pop two ounces of stabil. Occasionally Techron.

    Politics? Well, once a snowball starts rolling downhill it's impossible to stop if politicians/voters/lobbyists get acclimated. And motorcycles having IC engines just get rolled into the mix because, well, because. After the clean air act in the early seventies, the rest is history. Even in places where cool,clean crisp air abounds, air monitering stations sample the air constantly and air warnings go out in media. Just the way it is. In the worst cases of air pollution caused by IC engines something had to be and was done to clean up the problem. No rational person debated that a solution was needed. And now this thing has morphed, it seems to me anyhoo, into trying to control climate and weather. Which like many human projects approach only what the divine could possibly alter. And once "it" gets all cleaned up, like Lucy pulling the ball from Charlie, the standards are tightened. See CARB and small trucking firms in CA. There are some who probably blame hurricanes on politics?

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by 8ninety8 View Post

    Politics? Well, once a snowball starts rolling downhill it's impossible to stop if politicians/voters/lobbyists get acclimated. And motorcycles having IC engines just get rolled into the mix because, well, because. After the clean air act in the early seventies, the rest is history.
    The purpose of the summer restriction on E15 was to limit it in the summer because it contributes to (not reduces) the formation of Ozone. So much for the clean air argument for ethanol. At the E15 level, in the summer at least, it increases, not decreases, pollution. But one day after recent well publicized events, Iowa's senator got his reward for faithful service.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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  11. #41
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    Got the AMA renewal today, guess I'll pony up because they're the bike lobby when it comes to E15. Although there are many complaints about what they sanction, voting for a correct candidate doesn't help much when pro or con political views can rise and fall at the drop of a hat, into the ring. Motorcyclists have had a dog in this oxygenate thing but we traditionally sat on our bikes and enjoyed the ride. Eventually everything gets political. BMWMOA could lobby but our dues and lottery fees are already allocated to other things. We could allocate ten percent of whatever to the AMA. Or just ban political discussions.

  12. #42
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
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    Political discussions ARE already banned AFAIK. But some seem to enjoy a short life here anyway if the topic somehow relates to motorcycling. Until someone gets carried away of course. As a Canadian who travels to several US rallies every year up and down the western states I notice that I can find ethanol free gas in limited areas of Washington and NONE in California. Oregon however is a haven of non ethanol gas and I get the best mileage and performance at higher altitudes especially in the outback of Oregon. My motorcycles just LOVE Oregon, and so do I.

    We used to talk about this stuff all the time at rallies but in 2017 a lot of those friendly discussions became very polarized and politicized. This past summer virtually no one talked about ethanol because it had gotten way too political. Politics have become so polarized that now that even just bit**ing about Ethanol has become a taboo subject.

    I'm not sure how I feel about this. The best ideas and the ability to understand other people's views comes from civil and healthy debate while respecting other's points of view was the key ingredient to learning. Obviously folks who rely on farming corn will have a very different view than city dwellers who complain about gas prices and ethanol ruining their old cars and bikes. That is fine and we should all strive to at least entertain other points of view even though we do not necessarily agree.

    This past summer I noticed that civil discourse on any topic involving politics was invisible. The discomfort people feel when a topic that might get political comes up around the "campfire" was palpable. Everyone just clams up. I think this is the result of very intense polarization our society is going through right now. It's a shame really and history teaches us this type of social environment never ever leads to good things down the road.

    Well, that and I couldn't get a good ethanol discussion going no matter how hard I tried!
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
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  13. #43
    Registered User lkchris's Avatar
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    This latest political ploy is permission, not mandate.

    There is no particular incentive to replace E10 with E15.

    There is always lots of talk about how bad ethanol is, reduced energy content, etc., but most overlook the fact that in order for gasoline to have high octane--anti knock properties to go along with high compression--an additive to basic gasoline is required. Since tetraethyl lead and MTBE are now illegal, all that's left is ethanol. Low compression engines are basically irrelevant to anyone running German cars or motorcycles and therefore use of premium fuel is the driving force. You're going to need some ethanol.
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  14. #44
    Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat Omega Man's Avatar
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    Just about everything has political “overtones”. When the outright political blame, name calling, hate and insults against other Members views start is when the thread is threatened.
    We have a good group and hope everyone can take care and keep things civil.
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  15. #45
    There is an incentive to get more E15 into the market--the "blend wall". The EPA sets the mandate for how much ethanol must be blended into the fuel supply each year. Given the annual fuel consumption in the US at the present time, the EPA mandate can not be achieved with E10 alone. Thus the push for E15. Yes, we already have E85 in the market place to help with the EPA compliance. But, it hasn't taken off due to pricing. At the stations I frequent that sell E85, I have never seen a vehicle fueling up with the stuff.

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