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more ethanol content

So I just looked on the pure gas site, and found in my home town in Taxachusetts I can purchase 5 gals. of this (normal) fuel for a mere $75.00 at the local lawnmower shop.:scratch It reminds me of when I worked in the Dallas - Ft. Worth area and people would ask "Why Y'all live there?"

Columbus energy near Sekonk Speedway has racing fuel at $10/gal. I usually get a 5 gal container for emergencies and a 5 gal container to use with 2-stroke engines- when they are going to storage or occasional use.
OM
 
Back to one of the basic questions: "What gets damaged?"

Not an exhaustive list but here are a few things. Airhead carb floats, fuel lines, and carb diaphragms. Since ethanol attracts water if it sits it can damage fuel tanks. Bing does have alcohol resistant floats for E10.

Classic K bikes - ditto fuel tank damage. The biggest problem is it turns fuel pump mounts to mush which can then foul the fuel pump and injectors. This can be a $1,000 problem. Bob's BMW has aftermarket mounts that are alcohol resistant to E10.

Oilheads - seem fairly resistant to damage from E10 although the same issues as for other bikes crop up on models with metal fuel tanks such as the R1150R.

Later bikes? I have no idea. Others need to add to this list.
 
Consider some possible positives. Maybe more universal presence of E15 for newer vehicles will tend to bring back E0 fuel since so many older vehicles that could get by with E10 will get indigestion from E15. In other words, the demand for E0 in an all-E15 society would increase. Remember the producers are just trying to somehow get rid of a certain amount of mandated & subsidized ethanol. The subsidy money comes from the market's premium price of E0.

Or is ethanol blended in at the local pumps?
 
Back to one of the basic questions: "What gets damaged?"

Not an exhaustive list but here are a few things. Airhead carb floats, fuel lines, and carb diaphragms. Since ethanol attracts water if it sits it can damage fuel tanks. Bing does have alcohol resistant floats for E10.

Classic K bikes - ditto fuel tank damage. The biggest problem is it turns fuel pump mounts to mush which can then foul the fuel pump and injectors. This can be a $1,000 problem. Bob's BMW has aftermarket mounts that are alcohol resistant to E10.

Oilheads - seem fairly resistant to damage from E10 although the same issues as for other bikes crop up on models with metal fuel tanks such as the R1150R.

Later bikes? I have no idea. Others need to add to this list.

Now remember that there is the Knock issue and combustion temps and pressures.

Not a bad thing by many standards, but remember that older engines were designed for non-ethanol fuels specially pre-1990's.

Older gas engines use to work off of 90+ octane pre-emission days.


for those confused, older engines actually worked off of higher compression ratios pre-emmission days because of the high temps from raw gasoline.
When the additives came in (not including lead) the ratings actually dropped for years because of the EGR issues and other factors.
Then as the designs for the emissions grew, so too did the ability to up the octane.

E15 may or may not have an overall effect on the combustion, but at least seats (post 1980) should be hardened and take the lead free stuff with no issue, but there could theoretically be a timing issue if the E15 turns out to be a hotter or colder burn.
 
And the cost to produce it is equal to gasoline. Diminishing returns for a fuel that creates less energy.

It isn’t just the output energy difference, it’s the input as well for what is a horribly inefficient production process. Fuel, fertilizer, labor, and semi-fixed overhead costs used to grow corn only to process it into alcohol. Then factor in the environmental impacts from marginal land, land that in many cases used to be prairie grass pasture, being tilled and put unto service growing corn, with the final kicker being the reduction in crop rotation practices to a simple three-crop rotation: corn, wheat, and soybeans. And if the market or subsidy payments dictate, the rotation gets over-ridden and the same crop planted in a field two years in a row. I’ve seen this unfold first-hand on the rental farmland I manage for my family.

There is no doubt about the need for oxygenation in modern-day fuels, to help with emissions reduction. Octane-boosting via alcohol is just a cover for cost-cutting and profitability by the big-oil refineries, who are quite capable of producing any octane level we’d buy. But the price would, of course, be higher—especially when compared against the artificially-low subsidized price of alcohol-laden fuel. So if you really want to see change in the present system you could start by seeking out and purchasing alcohol-free fuel at every opportunity (http://www.pure-gas.org). I do it every chance I get, even when traveling.

Best,
DG
 
swall - THX...

If you can tolerate the reduction in octane, ethanol can always be removed by washing the mix with a modest amount of water, allow to settle, & then draining the water-ethanol mix out. Toss the mix back into the environment. They put it there, they can take it back..........

This works for small engines which have modest octane requirements. I have not tried it with M/C engines.
 
Around these parts the majority of stations sell ethanol free premium.

If I remember correctly all Sinclair stations in Montana sell non-ethanol premium at least that was true the last time I was up that way when I took possession of my new to me FJR1300A in Kalispell, MT.

Lucky me I have a commercial fuel card that gives me access to card lock stations that sell non-ethanol with self serve pumps no less. About the only way you're going to dispense your own fuel in Oregon since there are no self service stations here. Don't ask how I came by a commercial account. A lot of folks use non-ethanol here in their boats.
 
Trump made this decision to curry votes in midwestern states impacted by his trade wars (sorry if this is getting into politics, but that's what E15 is all about). I don't know if he actually has the ability to force fuel companies to sell E15. That might take an act of congress. Last I knew, ethanol was more expensive that the normal components of gasoline, so there is no economic incentive for either fuel companies or consumers to push for E15. If it's not mandated, it won't happen. There has also been pushback on Trump's E15 from both consumers and business interests.
 
Nrpetersen--the ethanol is blended at the terminal where the tank trucks fill up.

For most E10, yes. But “blender pumps” are being pushed as the pathway to selling E20-E85 blends, especially for stations with existing pump and tank infrastructure. My guess is that much like existing pumps of today, the first few tenths you pump would be whatever mix was last purchased, so your E10 or E15 could be juiced a little. Not a problem for cars or pickups with larger tanks and purchases, but an issue with small-tank vehicles like motorcycles.

Best,
DG
 
Trump made this decision to curry votes in midwestern states impacted by his trade wars (sorry if this is getting into politics, but that's what E15 is all about). I don't know if he actually has the ability to force fuel companies to sell E15. That might take an act of congress. Last I knew, ethanol was more expensive that the normal components of gasoline, so there is no economic incentive for either fuel companies or consumers to push for E15. If it's not mandated, it won't happen. There has also been pushback on Trump's E15 from both consumers and business interests.
Henry Ford uses ethanol to power 1908 Model T.
The US became the largest producer of ethanol in 2005.
Dec. 2007 Energy Independence and Security Act. Signed by congress and then Pres. Bush.
Obama administration set goal of 10,000 blender pumps nation wide by 2015.
2018 Trumps fault.
 
Then factor in the environmental impacts from marginal land, land that in many cases used to be prairie grass pasture, being tilled and put unto service growing corn,
Best,
DG

In hilly southern Iowa we had a lot of pasture and hay ground. A lot of that grassland is now crop ground.
Even with conservation practices it's hard to control soil erosion on steep slopes in crop fields.
 
GTRider--The "blender pumps" I have encountered are more appropriately called "selector pumps". A single pump dispenses fuel from two or more tanks. If you want E0, you select that grade and it gets pumped from the E0 tank. If you select E10 or E15, that grade comes from the tank containing the appropriate grade. Of course, residual fuel remains in the dispensing hose and if you select E0 and the last guy selected E10, you will end up with some ethanol in your fuel. The only way around this is to get a test kit and test the fuel. This is not practical to do "on the fly". What I do, is pump fuel into a 5 gallon container and test the ethanol content when get home before I dump it into my R90S. Here in central Indiana, I buy E0 fuel from 4 stations. The presence or absence of ethanol is not listed on their pumps, so I am never sure of what I have until I do the test. Hypothetically--if a station wanted to add their own ethanol, they would have to get a RIN number from the EPA and then comply with the tracking mandates of the Reformulated Fuels Standard.
 
Only morons will grow a food resource at great expense (water anyone?) and then proceed to burn it as fuel, under the misguided notion that it is good for the environment.
Like already previously mentioned, the higher the ethanol content in gas, the lower the MPG's will be for any given vehicle. If you don't believe that, just run a few tankful's of non ethanol gas and see what happens with the MPG's in your vehicle.. YMMV
 
Running pure gasoline in modern engines is actually not very advisable due to the combustion pressures, timing, etc.

I agree with the overall assessment that everyone is giving, but remember that this was started not as an individualistic aspect of running a specific flammable fuel in an internal combustion engine as it was political in nature.

Politics and government (go to the definition of government... meaning a body that governs, governs means to control or limit) and then apply that concept to the legislation.
Ergo: legislation is designed to control movement of something and limit its effects. Rather than deal with the heave and hoe of daily routine, its designed to be a measured process.

This is in fact only legislation that mandates use of something. All intended to carry the masses and solve a problem that has its roots in a fallacy to begin with.

E15 is a solution looking for a problem but it is viable if an industry is designed to adapt to it rather than force it. (A fav. tactic of the politicos).
 
GTRider--The "blender pumps" I have encountered are more appropriately called "selector pumps". A single pump dispenses fuel from two or more tanks. If you want E0, you select that grade and it gets pumped from the E0 tank. If you select E10 or E15, that grade comes from the tank containing the appropriate grade. Of course, residual fuel remains in the dispensing hose and if you select E0 and the last guy selected E10, you will end up with some ethanol in your fuel. The only way around this is to get a test kit and test the fuel. This is not practical to do "on the fly". What I do, is pump fuel into a 5 gallon container and test the ethanol content when get home before I dump it into my R90S. Here in central Indiana, I buy E0 fuel from 4 stations. The presence or absence of ethanol is not listed on their pumps, so I am never sure of what I have until I do the test. Hypothetically--if a station wanted to add their own ethanol, they would have to get a RIN number from the EPA and then comply with the tracking mandates of the Reformulated Fuels Standard.

Yes, there is no “pure ethanol” tank at the station—ATF would have fun with that one! Blender pumps work the same way they always have, by mixing in pre-determined proportion fuels from two or more tanks. That is how three options—regular, mid-grade, and premium—have been dispensed from single-hose pumps for decades.

Likewise, it is now possible to see blender pumps where flex-fuel mixes between E25 and E85 can be delivered from a single hose. The pump delivers an on-site mix drawn from the E10 and E85 tanks, so roughly the first 0.2-0.3gallons can be whatever mix the last purchaser used. Regulators are probably not too enthused, as “accurate at all deliveries and pressures” might have to extend to the E-mix as well as the volume. I would think that a bit harder to pin down than the simple octane rating of a mid-grade blend of pure gasoline. The ethanol crowd loves the concept of these pumps as a way to increase ethanol usage.

The original E-blender pumps were developed back where I used to live, in the Dakotas. On a trip back there this spring I encountered one station with 5 nozzles at the pump, including blender options—but no ethanol-free fuel. I whipped out my phone, checked Pure Gas, and motored to a different station. But you’re right, it is often difficult and cumbersome to find non-ethanol fuels when traveling.

I am surprised that you can buy in your locale gasohol blends that are not clearly labeled as such-I thought such labeling was a requirement under the original acts or legislation that started this entire alcohol insanity.

Best,
DG

PS: just ran across this, which seems to indicate a direction toward actual blending of gas and ethanol right at the pump. Don’t know if any like this are in service yet, tho—will have to dig a bit more.
http://www.byoethanol.com/how-they-work.html
 
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Closest pure gas here sells for around $3.10 per gallon, which I use in yard equipment and two bikes. If on a longer trip, gonna have to run ethanol until you can get back to some pure gas, especially for the airheads. And never ever leave ethanol in tanks over winter. Dry tanks hanging on a hook are best. Treated gas better. I get five gallons of pure and pop two ounces of stabil. Occasionally Techron.

Politics? Well, once a snowball starts rolling downhill it's impossible to stop if politicians/voters/lobbyists get acclimated. And motorcycles having IC engines just get rolled into the mix because, well, because. After the clean air act in the early seventies, the rest is history. Even in places where cool,clean crisp air abounds, air monitering stations sample the air constantly and air warnings go out in media. Just the way it is. In the worst cases of air pollution caused by IC engines something had to be and was done to clean up the problem. No rational person debated that a solution was needed. And now this thing has morphed, it seems to me anyhoo, into trying to control climate and weather. Which like many human projects approach only what the divine could possibly alter. And once "it" gets all cleaned up, like Lucy pulling the ball from Charlie, the standards are tightened. See CARB and small trucking firms in CA. There are some who probably blame hurricanes on politics?
 
Politics? Well, once a snowball starts rolling downhill it's impossible to stop if politicians/voters/lobbyists get acclimated. And motorcycles having IC engines just get rolled into the mix because, well, because. After the clean air act in the early seventies, the rest is history.

The purpose of the summer restriction on E15 was to limit it in the summer because it contributes to (not reduces) the formation of Ozone. So much for the clean air argument for ethanol. At the E15 level, in the summer at least, it increases, not decreases, pollution. But one day after recent well publicized events, Iowa's senator got his reward for faithful service.
 
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