Did you really mean to say "moved them (the cleats) as close as possiblea'? Moving the cleats in nearer the bike effectively increases the Q-factor by moving the foot further away from the bike.
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The Bicycling thread
- Thread starter henzilla
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Did you really mean to say "moved them (the cleats) as close as possiblea'? Moving the cleats in nearer the bike effectively increases the Q-factor by moving the foot further away from the bike.
Well, thank you for checking my work! I just checked what I did - and it is exactly the opposite of what I intended. I must have confused myself working 'upside down'. Holy moly would she have been pissed at me tomorrow morning! Fixing them now...
Thanks again.
Edit: Fixed it but I really don't know what I was thinking when I did it in the first place. As soon as I read your email, I thought, "no, you're not that stupid". I am. But I'm also overconfident - spent part of the evening with a multimeter trying to figure out why my house AC compressor isn't getting 230V. Bad contactor. Was going to take it apart and try to clean the contact points until I get a new part. Now I'm doubting myself.
Thank you. Now I understand. Michelle's inseam my be just a little bit longer than yours. I think she is 29". Proportionally she has long legs and a short torso.
I'm going to see if we can get away with the 165s (she has them on 5 bikes!).
I've been training with power for about 16 years and with a heart rate monitor for much longer than that. To use motorcycle analogies, the power meter is like a motorcycle racer/mechanic having their own dyno and the HRM is like having a tachometer on the bike. And I use them for about the same purpose. HR is more useful to me during a ride. Keeps me from blowing up and can warn me of dehydration or overheating. One time I had it on when I took a trip to the emergency room. I saw my HR drop to below 30, I said to the nurse, "I'm going to pass out now" - and did.
riderr1150gsadv
Well-known member
Years ago I got a professional fitting for both my MTB and gravel bike. The key was that the shop doing it replaced a few items for free as we swapped out a handlebar and 2 stems and one seat. The shop did a lot of fittings as the owner doing the fittings was a pro rider. Sadly he retired and closed the shop...
Yes I paid $200 for both bikes, but it was worth it as I can ride longer without needing traction afterwards
For me it was money well spent but YMMV..
Yes I paid $200 for both bikes, but it was worth it as I can ride longer without needing traction afterwards
For me it was money well spent but YMMV..
Years ago I got a professional fitting for both my MTB and gravel bike. The key was that the shop doing it replaced a few items for free as we swapped out a handlebar and 2 stems and one seat. The shop did a lot of fittings as the owner doing the fittings was a pro rider. Sadly he retired and closed the shop...
Yes I paid $200 for both bikes, but it was worth it as I can ride longer without needing traction afterwards
For me it was money well spent but YMMV..
You are right, a good fit is worth the price - I wouldn't hesitate to pay for a detailed fitter to look at her. I don't know of any within at least 3 hours of where I live. The position that Michelle is in WAS done by a really good guy in Rochester. That got her into a position that allowed her to ride long miles (at that time we rode at least 100 miles on every Saturday in May and June). So her general position is good and she would have no problem going out and riding 5 hours with little pain. I am looking for that last 5% that allows her to generate more power while reducing her aerodynamic profile. I need someone with lasers, leg angle, leg length and seat pressure measurement capability. I know what I'm trying to get to if I just knew how far off she is. We are talking mm here.
You are probably thinking: "if you are that close, the body will adapt". Yup it will - but if you have a hitch somewhere, the body will adapt to prevent you from putting out the power that could cause damage. I guess pain is the ultimate adaptation of your body telling you not to do whatever is causing it any more.
Even little fit problems can cause muscle imbalances and repetitive use injuries if you ride enough. My experiment of moving my cleats rearward resulted in a slightly different feel when i first started riding today. I got used to it fairly quickly. After 30 miles I could feel my knees a little - but I was riding a lot of hills so that is probably normal. I'll stick with it for a while and how it goes.
Edit: Michelle just told me that she could feel the difference in cleat placement. She didn't do many hills and felt a little twinge in her left knee (lower left of kneecap while looking at it from the front). She also felt the tightness in her back - which she has had before. This is minor discomfort - not really pain. But she felt like she could get more power to the pedal in the new position so she is going to ride that way for a while and see if she can adapt. I think the tightness in the back is a leg length thing. Or maybe we'll start doing yoga.
Well, thank you for checking my work! I just checked what I did - and it is exactly the opposite of what I intended. I must have confused myself working 'upside down'. Holy moly would she have been pissed at me tomorrow morning! Fixing them now...
Thanks again.
Edit: Fixed it but I really don't know what I was thinking when I did it in the first place. As soon as I read your email, I thought, "no, you're not that stupid". I am. But I'm also overconfident - spent part of the evening with a multimeter trying to figure out why my house AC compressor isn't getting 230V. Bad contactor. Was going to take it apart and try to clean the contact points until I get a new part. Now I'm doubting myself.
I almost lost the sale of a very expensive tandem because the manufacture changed the BB width/q-factor. When my customer ordered it, we didn't think about q-factor changing. The bike came in, with just about every bell & whistle on it. First ride/stoker came back saying she couldn't accept the bike -- q-factor too wide. I was able to move her cleats out (moving her feet inboard) and all was well again. Final test ride -- the couple came back all smiles! And yes, it is very easy to get confused working with the shoes upside down. Don't beat yourself up over it. Just be glad you caught it before your wife did!
riderr1150gsadv
Well-known member
You are right, a good fit is worth the price - I wouldn't hesitate to pay for a detailed fitter to look at her. I don't know of any within at least 3 hours of where I live. The position that Michelle is in WAS done by a really good guy in Rochester. That got her into a position that allowed her to ride long miles (at that time we rode at least 100 miles on every Saturday in May and June). So her general position is good and she would have no problem going out and riding 5 hours with little pain. I am looking for that last 5% that allows her to generate more power while reducing her aerodynamic profile. I need someone with lasers, leg angle, leg length and seat pressure measurement capability. I know what I'm trying to get to if I just knew how far off she is. We are talking mm here.
You are probably thinking: "if you are that close, the body will adapt". Yup it will - but if you have a hitch somewhere, the body will adapt to prevent you from putting out the power that could cause damage. I guess pain is the ultimate adaptation of your body telling you not to do whatever is causing it any more.
My experiment of moving my cleats rearward resulted in a slightly different feel when i first started riding today. I got used to it fairly quickly. After 30 miles I could feel my knees a little - but I was riding a lot of hills so that is probably normal. I'll stick with it for a while and how it goes.
Edit: Michelle just told me that she could feel the difference in cleat placement. She didn't do many hills and felt a little twinge in her left knee (lower left of kneecap while looking at it from the front). She also felt the tightness in her back - which she has had before. This is minor discomfort - not really pain. But she felt like she could get more power to the pedal in the new position so she is going to ride that way for a while and see if she can adapt. I think the tightness in the back is a leg length thing. Or maybe we'll start doing yoga.
Close but no cigar can still hurt you. Shame you have no access to a good shop that can help you.
Yoga can't hurt either and losing a few pounds helps even more. I know I look like I didn't miss a meal.....
Today we rode on trainers because it is hot out - and I was too lazy to get outside early in the morning.
This gave me an opportunity to check out Michelle's position with the cleats moved back and OUT. She is riding noticeably less 'toe down' - her pedal stroke looks fantastic. I also notice that her right leg is no longer flailing away from the bike at the top of the stroke. She actually asked me if I can move the cleats any further back (ans: only with the adapters Vark mentioned). The Q factor is better bit still an issue. I challenged her to brush her inner thigh on her top tube - it was uncomfortable for her and she was unable to touch the top tube (I do this naturally). Her feet are just too far away from the center of the bike.
Bottom line: 1) I'm going to work on moving cleats back and Q-factor in (with shorter pedal spindles) and, maybe, a leg length shim under her right leg, 2) I'm going to let her adapt to that and see where we are. Eventually we may try shorter cranks - I cringe at the expense, though.
For the folks on the tails of the height distribution curve, getting a really good fit is HARD! We have the same problem with motorcycles. She rides an F800ST, factory lowered, custom saddle, fork tubes raised and bar backs. She also has a laminar lip. It took a couple of years to get that bike to fit properly - and that is a main reason why we tend to keep motorcycles forever: it is so painful to get them set up the first time. I almost bought a second lowered F800ST as a future replacement because she loves this one so much. Her previous bike was an R1100R that she rode for 15 years before getting the F. That was also modified but was never really comfy for her. She loved the power but not the weight.
This gave me an opportunity to check out Michelle's position with the cleats moved back and OUT
. She is riding noticeably less 'toe down' - her pedal stroke looks fantastic. I also notice that her right leg is no longer flailing away from the bike at the top of the stroke. She actually asked me if I can move the cleats any further back (ans: only with the adapters Vark mentioned). The Q factor is better bit still an issue. I challenged her to brush her inner thigh on her top tube - it was uncomfortable for her and she was unable to touch the top tube (I do this naturally). Her feet are just too far away from the center of the bike.Bottom line: 1) I'm going to work on moving cleats back and Q-factor in (with shorter pedal spindles) and, maybe, a leg length shim under her right leg, 2) I'm going to let her adapt to that and see where we are. Eventually we may try shorter cranks - I cringe at the expense, though.
For the folks on the tails of the height distribution curve, getting a really good fit is HARD! We have the same problem with motorcycles. She rides an F800ST, factory lowered, custom saddle, fork tubes raised and bar backs. She also has a laminar lip. It took a couple of years to get that bike to fit properly - and that is a main reason why we tend to keep motorcycles forever: it is so painful to get them set up the first time. I almost bought a second lowered F800ST as a future replacement because she loves this one so much. Her previous bike was an R1100R that she rode for 15 years before getting the F. That was also modified but was never really comfy for her. She loved the power but not the weight.
Close but no cigar can still hurt you. Shame you have no access to a good shop that can help you.
Yoga can't hurt either and losing a few pounds helps even more. I know I look like I didn't miss a meal.....
Michelle would probably agree that she could use a little upper body conditioning but at 97lbs, she doesn't need to lose any weight. We have discussed implementing a core strength regime and will start that up soon. She is quite modest - but she is actually a very strong rider, especially against her peers. In races she is usually on the podium in her age group - admittedly, over 50 ladies may be a lightly populated demographic in bike races.
Here is a 'before' picture of her:
Now I could sure stand to lose 15 lbs!
riderr1150gsadv
Well-known member
Michelle would probably agree that she could use a little upper body conditioning but at 97lbs, she doesn't need to lose any weight. We have discussed implementing a core strength regime and will start that up soon. She is quite modest - but she is actually a very strong rider, especially against her peers. In races she is usually on the podium in her age group - admittedly, over 50 ladies may be a lightly populated demographic in bike races.
Here is a 'before' picture of her:
View attachment 79477
Now I could sure stand to lose 15 lbs!
Good for her doing well in races and she should do even better with all the adjustments you guys are working on. I also hear you on the heat, as I haven't been riding as much as I should either since Florida detached from earth and moved closer to the sun.....
Definitely try the Speedplay extension plates for her. They are relatively inexpensive and pretty simple to install.
Be aware, they only get you about 3/8-1/2” of movement aft (don’t quote me on that - - I could be off but I do remember wishing it was much more.) However, using them at max extension definitely produced a noticeable reduction in stress on the tendons in my ankles and feet. That repetitive stress is cumulative and can lead to weakness and even injuries.
On the shorter cranks, you might consider trying a set on the one bike she rides the most often (or maybe the most miles.) But I would not pursue this unless you are prepared to make some other driveline changes at the same time.
The benefits of shorter cranks are not fully realized without making other adjustments to the drivetrain, ie less aggressive gearing. If you only shorten her crank length, there is a good chance she will find herself spending a lot more time in the lower gears on her cassette, and needing to switch to the smaller front chainring much more often in hills. That is less efficient and can be annoying too.
I recommend moving to smaller chainrings when reducing cranklength. And if you are going to be buying new chainrings anyway, consider giving Rotor’s ovalized Q-rings a try. The variable diameter takes a little getting used to, but I’ve found they provide a lot of benefit.
P.S. She has good taste in motorcycles, too. That F800ST is a sharp looking bike.
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Got my first flat on the tubeless system today. 7 miles into a 67 mile bike ride. Gash in the middle of the tire about 1/8" wide. Sealant was spewing out - it was trying hard to reseal. And it did, kind of. The hole was just a little too large for the sealant.
Fixing the flat was no big deal. Same drill as fixing a tubed tire except instead of removing the old tube, you remove the tubeless valve stem and dump out some of the sealant. I used CO2 to fill the tire with new tube. The first one didn't seat the bead - and I noticed it while ride (an 'unbalanced' feeling with every revolution). So I stopped again after 5 more miles and used another CO2 shot. Everything was fine after that.
I think the bead not seating is because of the sealant. It acts as an adhesive that keeps the bead from sliding onto the 'hook' of the rim.
I noticed a lot of small slashes in the rear tire. My tire has a flat center strip now after about 1500? miles. Michelle's look a lot better and she has about 2k miles. The difference between a light/low power rider vs a clydesdale. We have the same experience with motorcycle tires. I've been running Michelin Pilot 4 GTs on our touring bikes and I wouldn't be surprised if she gets double the miles I do.
Pictures from the ride. We were in Oswego on Lake Ontario.
First picture is in front of Rudys Drive Inn - a local favorite, right on the lake. This looks like nobody is there - but in reality, all of the outdoor seating was packed. This is a popular place for car and motorcycle club meetings. Our buddy Jim Mignogna, a long time motorcycle shop owner, mechanic, and Moto Guzzi enthusiast, holds a yearly ride-in for European bikes in Rudys' parking lot. He would prefer Italian only but only 10 guys would show up. Michelle rode Guzzis for years so Jim lets us hang around even though she is on a BMW now. Rudys other claim to fame (for us) is that it is the start/finish of the Tour de Loop bicycle race. It was my first race back in 1999.
Just down the road from Rudys - I tried to take a lake photo on the fly. I have problems with sweat mist on the lens.
Fixing the flat was no big deal. Same drill as fixing a tubed tire except instead of removing the old tube, you remove the tubeless valve stem and dump out some of the sealant. I used CO2 to fill the tire with new tube. The first one didn't seat the bead - and I noticed it while ride (an 'unbalanced' feeling with every revolution). So I stopped again after 5 more miles and used another CO2 shot. Everything was fine after that.
I think the bead not seating is because of the sealant. It acts as an adhesive that keeps the bead from sliding onto the 'hook' of the rim.
I noticed a lot of small slashes in the rear tire. My tire has a flat center strip now after about 1500? miles. Michelle's look a lot better and she has about 2k miles. The difference between a light/low power rider vs a clydesdale. We have the same experience with motorcycle tires. I've been running Michelin Pilot 4 GTs on our touring bikes and I wouldn't be surprised if she gets double the miles I do.
Pictures from the ride. We were in Oswego on Lake Ontario.
First picture is in front of Rudys Drive Inn - a local favorite, right on the lake. This looks like nobody is there - but in reality, all of the outdoor seating was packed. This is a popular place for car and motorcycle club meetings. Our buddy Jim Mignogna, a long time motorcycle shop owner, mechanic, and Moto Guzzi enthusiast, holds a yearly ride-in for European bikes in Rudys' parking lot. He would prefer Italian only but only 10 guys would show up. Michelle rode Guzzis for years so Jim lets us hang around even though she is on a BMW now. Rudys other claim to fame (for us) is that it is the start/finish of the Tour de Loop bicycle race. It was my first race back in 1999.
Just down the road from Rudys - I tried to take a lake photo on the fly. I have problems with sweat mist on the lens.
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Rode with a tube in my rear tubeless tire. It is pumped to about 100 psi. The ride is much more harsh and lacks 'suspension' so it feels like it 'slips' when cornering over bumps. So my experience is that tubes in tubeless tires suck. We have some more tubeless tires ordered - I like the feel so I'm willing to live with the apparently short life.
Also: new lights were waiting for us when we got home from our ride. These are for conspicuity only. Single LED front and rear so there is no beam effect (no side visibility). Both front and rear blink. They are very small and light weight. Charge via USB - but no cable required. The USB connection is built right into the casing of the light. I'll post my impressions after a few rides. I'll keep track of run time on the new batteries, too.
Also: new lights were waiting for us when we got home from our ride. These are for conspicuity only. Single LED front and rear so there is no beam effect (no side visibility). Both front and rear blink. They are very small and light weight. Charge via USB - but no cable required. The USB connection is built right into the casing of the light. I'll post my impressions after a few rides. I'll keep track of run time on the new batteries, too.
Lee,
The Knog mini-blinder single LED lights work OK: they provide conspicuity in a very small, rechargeable package. There is a built in 'male' USB-A power plug so it could plug into a computer or other device with a female USB-A socket. They do NOT come with a charger of their own, so you have to provide your own. That isn't a problem for us, we have collected a million of these things over the years. Having a male USB connection is unique: I don't have any other devices that are set up that way. It looks like it would keep the device pretty waterproof: there is no hole for water to collect in.
I'm still trying to figure out how much run time I get on a charge. I know that I get at least 3.5 hours. After that, I've been recharging because I don't want to 'run out' on my next ride.
I usually ride ahead of Michelle and I can see her front blinking white light. It isn't very pronounced in bright sunshine but on overcast days or in shadows it is very noticeable. I would consider the rear lights more of a 'backup'. We use our Niterider lights all of the time: they are REALLY bright and last a long time. The Knog also have no way to mount on our saddlebags. They have an elastic band that attaches the unit to the seat post. This works fine for my bikes but doesn't work so well for Michelle's smaller frames. There is no room under the saddlebag to put the Knog. It will work on her travel bike, though.
Now for the bad news: the first set that I used had a defective battery in the front light. It only held a charge for about 1 hour. We bought them from Amazon, who promptly replaced it with a unit that appears to work fine (only 1 x 2.5 hour ride so far).
So, for a little over $20 we got small white blinking front lights and a 'backup' rear light. I don't like to run my 'big' front light permanently because it encroaches on my preferred hand position on the tops. And it is a bit heavy.
So I will continue to run them and will see how long they last. They seem well made. You do have to 'stretch' a rubber band to attach them after every charge. That looks like the weak point, to me.
Michelle also went nuts and bought the Niterider Solas 250 rear light (~$40) for both of us. This is similar to our current rear light but adds a red LED 'traffic lane' behind the bike. I imagine that it looks crazy after dark. I haven't had a chance to try them out yet. These get poor reviews online - but only for the mounting bracket. But we don't use the bracket, we attach them to our saddle bags. The Niterider lights are really bright and have substantial batteries. That adds cost and weight, however.
