At the risk of sounding like a cocky new member, i still got to ask "do most people who ride not have a clue how to take a corner? This question coming after a trip a few weeks ago down to North Carolina. The wife and I were following a guy and girl on a goldwing one morning ,traffic was very light as we came to the Famous "tail of the Dragon" the very first corner was a sharp nicely banked right turn. Watching the goldwing enter the corner low and inside I grabbed the brake and yelled to the wife "this is ugly" as we watched the guy and his passenger over shoot the corner, nearly getting t-boned by a Hardly and came to a rest in the shoulder of the far lane, not far from a killer drop. I know BMW riders are a different breed , and like me enjoy learning all they can about riding safely. Taking a corner safely and cutting the apex seem like "riding 101" but after watching many riders including some with years of riding experience, I'm starting to wonder if cornering by cutting the apex is my own little secret to cornering faster and safer?
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cutting the apex
- Thread starter 1wingnut
- Start date
pglaves
#13338
They don't teach that much going around cones. Or while touring a dealership looking at clothing and accessories. Advanced training is important. A good on-track school can be invaluable. So can other riding skills courses. Books help too: Proficient Motorcycling, More Proficient Motorcycling, Street Strategies, just to name a few, all illustrate good cornering lines and the benefits of using a late apex. Go to Spearfish Canyon in South Dakota any week in late July or early August and you can watch an annual version of The Great American Wobblefest.
powwow
Member
I would also add YouTube videos to your list, Paul. There are some excellent ones out there that thoroughly explain how to hit the apex and why it's a much more efficient way to go around a curve.
The problem is the high percentage of riders never put on any real miles, nor do they take any training of any kind on how to ride. Most are guys in their 50's and 60's that have not been on a motorcycle for thirty years, then decide to start riding again. They do a few rides on the weekends then one trip a year and never really learn how to ride, no muscle memory either. The great majority of riders have never run corners hard enough to scrape parts or feel the tires sliding on the pavement. Most have no clue what the limitations are of their motorcycle because they never ride hard enough to reach those limits. I don't believe any brand sees any better riders over another except by sheer numbers on the road. There are more crappy Harley riders than BMW riders just because there are hundred times more Harleys on the roads.
how many riders here could keep up with this guy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37XLJNLpzxQ
how many riders here could keep up with this guy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37XLJNLpzxQ
The previous post on experience hits home in many ways.
it is also something that I discovered recently in bad habits I picked up a while back.
NOT LOOKING FORWARD!!!
As i continued to get the bike back up to snuff, one item I realized I was doing was looking to close to the front of the bike on turns.
There is a large flyover in Albuquerque that is part of something we call the "Big I". (Big Interchange).
Anyway as I was taking the flyover I was slowing down to around 40 mph. I was not able for some reason to speed up or keep solid balance and wound up straightening up the bike repeatedly.
I have observed this repeatedly in other riders as of recent. I have seen other habits as well and unfortunately it falls yet again to the concept of education.
it is also something that I discovered recently in bad habits I picked up a while back.
NOT LOOKING FORWARD!!!
As i continued to get the bike back up to snuff, one item I realized I was doing was looking to close to the front of the bike on turns.
There is a large flyover in Albuquerque that is part of something we call the "Big I". (Big Interchange).
Anyway as I was taking the flyover I was slowing down to around 40 mph. I was not able for some reason to speed up or keep solid balance and wound up straightening up the bike repeatedly.
I have observed this repeatedly in other riders as of recent. I have seen other habits as well and unfortunately it falls yet again to the concept of education.
alancoles
Dress for fall & avoid it
This may be symantics, but your terms can easily be misconstrued. It would be far more appropriate to use the term hitting the apex than "cutting the apex". Using the term "cutting" suggests, as it does in cutting a corner, that one is going inside the appropriate line or apex.
I am not certain of what you are describing, but suspect you are referring to either crossing the centerline or executing an early apex. Both of which can get any rider into trouble.
As Guenther suggests, "standard" apexing (properly) is best left to the track. A modified form of apexing, staying close to the center of your lane, somewhere about 3/4 of the way from the right edge of your lane towards the centerline, is very desireable, but truely hitting one's apex within your own lane places the upper portion of your body and bike into the space of the uncoming lane of traffic. Absolutely not safe nor wise.
Very simply: I like to make use of the entire width of the lane to lengthen the radius of a turn. Anybody that says this is for the track only doesn't like to push it on the road like I do. I've ridden many of the country's best roads and I ride them hard, but I also ride very safe. My #1 Rule: Never ride faster than I can see,react and stop!!! This has saved my butt many times including the same day as the goldwing guy. Slightly later on the tail of dragon We had a guy in a car with trailer blow through his lane on a very sharp blind corner taking on about 3/4 of my lane.
Getting off subject a bit , but the average rider has no idea how their bike handles in a panic situation such as this. Simply because they don't practice it. 2 years ago right when I bought my Rt I found out I had a hernia and was going to be off work. I recovered from surgery for 3 days then hopped on the bike riding through the bad lands , blackhills, yellowstone, and glacier. Incredible 4000mile trip, I used it to really learn the bike and it's SAFE limits. That trip and practicing many panic stops and swerving stops on curves has since served me very well , including the time in western Montana mountains when 2 large hay bales fell off a truck and came at me.
Learning about cornering has all been part of my plan for many years of safe and great riding, simple as that. Thanks for the replies Dan
Great video, That's what I'm talkin bout!!!
pglaves
#13338
Using a majority of the lane to flatten the radius is just part of the technique. Where and when a rider does it is the other part of the equation. Generally hitting an "early apex" will cause the bike to go wide - maybe into the other lane or off the road. Holding the outside line until later and then hitting a "late apex" works much better at the same speed. David Hough explains this very well in all of his books, as do others.
beemerdood
New member
Paul, I've been an advocate of this technique for quite some time, but there are many who will argue against it. I think that "cutting the apex" as the OP mentions, is more of a track technique than one well suited for the road. On many turns it does not allow the rider to see through the turn, and so he may commit to a line and then encounter an obstacle in his path that, he can't avoid. Late apexing has the rider staying wide until he can see all the way through the turn, and then turning into it. If there's an obstacle, he goes where it's appropriate. It's not the answer for every possible situation out there, but it is the best answer for most turns that one will encounter in the twisties. Not quite as fast as cutting the apex, but much safer.
alancoles
Dress for fall & avoid it
Dan, again, this may be more a matter of symantics than anything else, but I consider that I ride briskly but rarely "push it" on the street. What you are describing,
, is slightly mis-worded and would imply that you are riding on the outside edge of the lane, which I believe is the opposite of what you are refering to. With "apexing" you are decreasing, not increasing it.
Like you, I've have had the great fortune to ride some fantastic roads (West Coast, East Coast and much of what is in between) and we are blessed to be able to do so. The many years that I raced cars (BMW M3 at the national level) and the few years that I road raced motorcycles (locally) and instructed in BMW High-Performance Driving Schools, saw continual apexing, usually at the apex itself or late apexes for specific reasons. I spent many years pushing it on the street until I spent time on the track and then shifted to only pushing it on the track. Don't get me wrong, I ride briskly on the road (by anyone's standard), mostly secondary highways where there is much fun to be had, but I try not to push things on the street as I'd like to continue to enjoy this sport for many years to come. ;-)
Using the "entire lane" with your head/body/bike within that lane is fine, but doing that with your tires is best left to the track. It is not only dangerous for the rider, but also for anyone they might encounter. Bad things can happen quickly.
Agreed, but note that the rider is doing several things (all properly):
- he is riding briskly without "pushing" it
- he is hitting the apex of the turns on right-hand turns
- his tires are in the middle of their lane or even to the right of middle for most left-hand turns
- the only time you see him hit any apex on a left-hand turn is almost always a very late apex where there is a full view of the road ahead
Again, we are mostly talking differences in symantics here but I would hate for the uninitiated to misconstrue something and get themselves into trouble.
Testing yourself on public roads by riding briskly will definitely improve your skills, however, one can not develop their skills to anywhere near the same level as spending some time on a closed course with an instructor. A closed course offers repeatable and consistant corners, surfaces, circumstances, etc. It is only that type of envirnoment that will allow someone to build their skill level by repeatedly working on improving and getting close to the limits of their abilities, the bike and the track. Public roads offer none of that as each corner is an unknown, even if you have been around it recently. On a track there are corner workers who will monitor and warn if someone has gone off-track and thrown gravel onto it. On the street the car 1/4 mile ahead of you might have just done that in such a manner that you can't see it until you are already committed if you are pushing it and using all of the lane. With no corner marshall there to provide a warning, the safest thing to do is not push it into the unknown.
Like you say, "Never ride faster than I can see,react and stop!!!" will serve us all very, very well.
AKsuited
New member
Key principle: "You must always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear..." This is from Motorcycle Roadcraft, the Police Rider's Handbook
https://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-R...orcycle+roadcraft+the+police+rider's+handbook
In other words, besides using the correct line, flattening the radius of each curve as Paul pointed out, there is the bigger issue of are you going too fast? Can you stop in the distance you can see to be clear? This takes into account stopping sight distance which will play a big part in how much risk you are actually accepting as you ride a curvy road.
https://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-R...orcycle+roadcraft+the+police+rider's+handbook
In other words, besides using the correct line, flattening the radius of each curve as Paul pointed out, there is the bigger issue of are you going too fast? Can you stop in the distance you can see to be clear? This takes into account stopping sight distance which will play a big part in how much risk you are actually accepting as you ride a curvy road.
American translation from the Queen's English...…….Don't go any faster than you can see to stop....hitting the bulldozer doesn't count as stopping. Okay, it does sort of count, but usually only once.
Friedle
AKsuited
New member
American translation from the Queen's English...…….Don't go any faster than you can see to stop....hitting the bulldozer doesn't count as stopping. Okay, it does sort of count, but usually only once.
Friedle
I was thinking more of the farm tractor/manure spreader around that next curve...
pglaves
#13338
When I was a corner worker we once had a problem with a rogue Irish Setter that seemed to want to chase race bikes. He was pesky and hard to catch because he would run off the track property and then sneak back to chase more bikes.
