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Principle of steering a motorcycle (or bicycle)

There also is the magic speed at which countersteering starts.Without searching, seems around 23mph was the consensus. What works at parking lot speed will not work above that threshold and vice versa

This is NOT really true. I would refer you back to Newton's principle of motion. That things in motion will stay in motion until acted upon by another force. This happens at 2 mph as well as at 60 mph.

I would suggest to you simply that you think that it is different but it is not. If you identify the C/G of the mass of the bike, and then (even at slow speeds) it will "want" to continue in a straight line unless acted upon by another force. Steering to the right or left, the mass (c/g) wants still to go straight - and it does - forcing the "fall" as gravity has more and more influence. Since it is going so slow (at 2 mph) it seems that there is something different going on than at 60 mph, but not so. Newton's principle is still in effect.

What I suggest is that since it is such a slow speed, it takes very little force to counteract Newton's straight line principle that it is difficult for the rider to apply that little of force with consistency - resulting in the seemingly wobble at the slow speeds. Why there is not a "consensus" as to when countersteering starts is due to the various riders' abilities to "control" the bike - some riders are better at it than others

If you watched the video that I posted from YouTube it explains that the phenomena of countersteering works on a motorcycle/bicycle at both slow speeds and at high speeds.

Try taking out a bicycle and slow speeds, and you will be able to detect the countersteering principles working when you are just going 3 or 4 mph. You don't need to get up to 20 mph to have it start to take affect.
 
This is NOT really true. I would refer you back to Newton's principle of motion. That things in motion will stay in motion until acted upon by another force. This happens at 2 mph as well as at 60 mph.

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I was with you for a while but as of this post you are wrong. If what you think doesn't agree with Tony Foale's book it is simply wrong. I challenge you to pull out of your garage using counter steering. Good luck. Don't hit the car.
 
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ……………………………. to dodge that road object, you could just quickly force the handlebars to the left to change your path of travel; then force them back to the right to resume your path of travel, all the while keeping your upper body independent of what the bike is performing beneath you (like we did as kids on bicycles, before we were old enough to spell 's c i e n c e').

Those of us who pass on reducing how we explain riding to a molecular level call that "a swerve." Works every time, though it may very well involve much of this previous video's minutia. :dance
 
On skinny bike tires and a wet surface, doing the handlebar swerve CAN be a recipe for a horizontal event.
Putting your closest shoulder over the object you are trying to avoid will keep the bike upright and move your line around the hazard. In a fast paceline a big swerve is gonna be trouble.

What worked on the Stingray sometimes doesn't transfer on bikes in my 60's:eek A lot of saddle time on both pedal and motor has taught me a few lessons.

I have read enough articles on the theories and science and still believe speed on a two wheeled vehicles is a major factor in application of CS.
 
I was with you for a while but as of this post you are wrong. If what you think doesn't agree with Tony Foale's book it is simply wrong. I challenge you to pull out of your garage using counter steering. Good luck. Don't hit the car.

Every time you steer your bike, it is by countersteering. Period. Whether it is out of the garage or on the road at 50 miles per hour. If one could set up an experiment and be able to push the bike and NOT give ANY other force than turning the handlebars. The mass of weight would still want to go in a straight line. Now, for sure, the front tire patch will continue to the right or left depending on the steering direction. However, if you would continue that process further, the bike/motorcycle would eventually fall to the side opposite of where it is being steered.

It is just that at those slow speeds, the RIDER provides the counter action to compensate - incrementally to be sure, but it is the slowness and the minuteness of the necessary counter action that is making people think that the process is not countersteering.

My question is this: How does a bicycle steer at 2 mph? Most bicyclists never reach that threshold of 20 to 23 mph that is supposed to be when countersteering kicks in.

My challenge to you is to get on your favorite Trek and go slow and see how you maintain your balance. You will achieve "not hitting the car" by anticipating (sub-consciously) the effect of the steer and compensating. It will be with the countersteering principles.

My last word. When does Newton's principle NOT work? When does it kick in?
 
Every time you steer your bike, it is by countersteering. Period. Whether it is out of the garage or on the road at 50 miles per hour. If one could set up an experiment and be able to push the bike and NOT give ANY other force than turning the handlebars. The mass of weight would still want to go in a straight line. Now, for sure, the front tire patch will continue to the right or left depending on the steering direction. However, if you would continue that process further, the bike/motorcycle would eventually fall to the side opposite of where it is being steered.

It is just that at those slow speeds, the RIDER provides the counter action to compensate - incrementally to be sure, but it is the slowness and the minuteness of the necessary counter action that is making people think that the process is not countersteering.

My question is this: How does a bicycle steer at 2 mph? Most bicyclists never reach that threshold of 20 to 23 mph that is supposed to be when countersteering kicks in.

My challenge to you is to get on your favorite Trek and go slow and see how you maintain your balance. You will achieve "not hitting the car" by anticipating (sub-consciously) the effect of the steer and compensating. It will be with the countersteering principles.

My last word. When does Newton's principle NOT work? When does it kick in?

Wrong again. Your horse died. Quit kicking it.
 
If I am wrong, please explain these three things:

1) How does this Harley rider do this obstacle course clearly going around 10 mph most of the time and NOT use the concept of counter-steering?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9MVY8swO5M

2) Please explain (and NONE of you have) how Newton's Law of motion (clearly accepted by science and true) is suddenly NOT working at speeds slower than 20 mph?

3) How do you explain why a bicycle uses counter-steering even at 2 mph? Easily demonstrated - try it!

When I read that article in the BMW New years ago, I didn't believe the whole concept of counter-steering. That is, until I went out and tested it out - even then it was at a speed of around 10 mph, though the slow speed issue I brought up here wasn't even on my mind then. Leaving out my view on slow speed -, I have seen "experienced" motorcycle riders deny the whole concept of counter-steering altogether, claiming that they have ridden for years and "they know."
 
I have a feeling that some get confused over the term "push". After years of driving things with steering wheels or levers, I think most think they are actually pulling :dunno


To go right (lean right) it is far easier to remember "push right, go right" than "pull left, go right." It's an attempt to avoid, "No, your other left..." problems. It's the simplest, easiest to remember explanation.
 
Have no argument on laws of physics, just like electrical theories and laws I am more used to.

Sure it is always part of the equation, my point was most folks on street motorcycles will not feel effects until they hit the magic number.At slower speeds I can turn with body movement, so CS is being applied in some form. At higher speeds and tighter turning radius at speed, you just feel the effects more.

When I do a 180, My bars are cranked back in direction of travel and I am leaning back into the turn following my line of sight. If countersteering is there, then it's there and I really don't care.

I have been riding bicycles pretty much since I was about 5, so everything is so automatic I never give it much thought. I get that CS is part of the action of steering and can roll at a very slow speed, no doubt Mr Newton is there. Once again, it really applies at higher speeds when you need to be in the game.

Other than that, I just ride ,and by doing that, practice my on and off road skills on all forms of bikes and not overthink the laws involved.
Tring to convince anyone about anything, like certian cruiser owners denying CS, is just a use of my time I would rather use enjoying life.BTDT and have a bunch of t-shirts:wave
 
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