New bikes age fast

Nothing to add that has not already been said. Just want to note that this is a great thread!!

I think we all risk the old saying "comparison is the thief of happiness" !! I love my 2012 GSA and my 2016 RT. The newer models are nice but these 2 make me very happy right now. As noted earlier once you buy the bike stop looking at new models.

Thanks again for a great thread!

I've had my '16 RT now since March 18, 2016. It's such a fabulous piece of work there is no way I'm going to turn it in for a latest model of RT just to keep up w/ new features and I do appreciate every single one of the features on my RT, and certainly would appreciate ABS Pro, My Motorcycle on my Nav V thanks BMW, and an LED headlight, but this bike is barely broken in. It has been 100% flawless so far now at 29,370m, ultra pleasant to ride, I very thankfully have no need to keep up w/ the latest revision since this revision is already so nice. The only bike that would pry me out of this is a lighter version of it as I don't see more weight as a positive attribute ultimately. I'd love to see BMW come out w/ a Baby K1600 of sorts, we'll call it BMW T1000GT:

• 978cc smooth triple or quad, 109HP, belt drive w/ 50K mile change interval. P:W would be the same as RTW is currently w/ the curb weight below and 109HP.
• Full Tech: ASC, ABS Pro, Dynamic ESA, Ride Modes, TPM, built-in TFT dash w/ blue tooth & GPS navigation
• Full Comfort: Electric Screen, , heated seats, heated grips, RT type ergonomics, side cases included
• Curb weight: 525lbs fully fueled, side cases mounted but empty

Missing full audio packages, central locking, keyless ignition--those can stay w/ the highest end series models. Belt drive is a weight reduction and power transmission asset and I loved it on the F800GT: lightweight, totally clean, no maintenance, quiet, smooth.

I believe many to most aging riders who have been riding K1600 and RT would love to see this bike arrive as they begin the often inevitable interest in downsizing weight due to age and strength, etc. Unfortunately, not a single manufacturer makes it currently. Electric windscreens for example start w/ bikes at 604lbs on up from there--and yet there is nothing necessary about this. As riders age riding 2-up happens much less so they really don't need the heft of GW, K1600, or even RTW to haul around this one older dude. And then there are women riders who will ten to migrate towards lighter as well. One of these days a brand will realize those baby boomers who have a few bucks to spend want performance, full comfort, full tech, all in a luxury lighter weight form factor. No brainer. Instead, it's an array of baggers, more adventure bikes the vast majority of which I'll bet are rarely taken off road, bigger, heavier, more power, and no one is addressing this niche I described. I believe it would sell really well if they got the styling right.

My guess is that you won't have long to wait. The 2018 F800GT has added a number of the things you're looking for, but with the same 90 hp engine. If the F850GS engine is put into a newly designed F850GT, you'll be very close to what you're asking for.

Another worth looking at, though it isn't a BMW, is the 2019 Yamaha Tracer GT. It'll be out supposedly in August. If so, it'll have just about what you're wanting, just without a belt.

Chris

daboo said:

My guess is that you won't have long to wait. The 2018 F800GT has added a number of the things you're looking for, but with the same 90 hp engine. If the F850GS engine is put into a newly designed F850GT, you'll be very close to what you're asking for.

Another worth looking at, though it isn't a BMW, is the 2019 Yamaha Tracer GT. It'll be out supposedly in August. If so, it'll have just about what you're wanting, just without a belt.

Chris

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I have always liked the F800GT and thought that it would be a great bike when the time comes to downsize. I like the belt drive and if it only had cruise control it would be near perfect. And I even like the colors.

The 2018 model went to a throttle by wire setup. If they change the engine design as we hope, cruise control might happen in that new design.

Chris

daboo said:

The 2018 model went to a throttle by wire setup. If they change the engine design as we hope, cruise control might happen in that new design.

Chris

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That is exactly what I hope when I saw the throttle by wire added. And maybe a hydraulic clutch.

daboo said:

My guess is that you won't have long to wait. The 2018 F800GT has added a number of the things you're looking for, but with the same 90 hp engine. If the F850GS engine is put into a newly designed F850GT, you'll be very close to what you're asking for.

Another worth looking at, though it isn't a BMW, is the 2019 Yamaha Tracer GT. It'll be out supposedly in August. If so, it'll have just about what you're wanting, just without a belt.

Chris

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Those are compromises as far as my wishes go. This is why I say only this configuration will pry me off this RT. I am of the belief a well designed electric screen is critically useful on the comfort side which contributes to any bike's touring worthiness. As well, I have less than zero interest in chain driven options. Shaft would be tolerable but it adds weight and we don't need that for this concept bike. I'd like to see, as I say, a Baby K1600 of sorts, optimized for 1-upsters like myself. Turbine smooth, full comfort, full tech, 525lbs, P:W a little better than my RT and I'd be lining up to order.

You might want to take a test ride on a R1200RS. I actually liked it better than the RT.

But while the windshield is adjustable, it is manual.

FWIW, one of the reasons I like the F800GT is the windshield. Not the OEM windshield, but the Madstad windshield. I've never felt that smooth of wind flow...well, with the exception of the RT. The RT was good...but no better. And it would cost me about $13K with a trade-in to get what I already have.

Chris

gsinnc said:

TAnd maybe a hydraulic clutch.

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I was surprised to learn clutch pull on RTW is considerably lighter than on FGT. As I have a propensity towards Dupuytren's contracture this is a subtle but very nice feature.

daboo said:

You might want to take a test ride on a R1200RS. I actually liked it better than the RT.

But while the windshield is adjustable, it is manual.

FWIW, one of the reasons I like the F800GT is the windshield. Not the OEM windshield, but the Madstad windshield. I've never felt that smooth of wind flow...well, with the exception of the RT. The RT was good...but no better. And it would cost me about $13K with a trade-in to get what I already have.

Chris

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Critical difference: Madstad is stuck in one position until you change it while the bike is stopped--I change my screen position for all sorts of riding conditions on the fly and do frequently--no comparison. I test rode RS before settling on RTW and found it cramped, and has garbage for wind management. I won't leave RT unless there is a substantial drop in weight, as I say around 525lbs wet w/ cases, AND the new bike has all of RT's other comfort, tech and performance features, save an audio package, central locking, and keyless ignition which I ordered my RT w/o. I think the latter three features ofter little value and are somewhat prone to troubles.

If you actually use an electric windshield, it is worth getting. I found on the last three bikes of mine, that once I set the windshield height, I pretty much left it alone. For me, it would be a gimmick. It sounds like for you, it is quite useful.

It also helps that I am short. The ergonomics of the F800GT with bar risers and lowered foot pegs works quite well for me. You'll probably laugh when you read this, but I bought it with an eye for touring. Before, my bikes were used for commuting and long (12 hours) day trips. I can easily afford a more expensive bike, and when I did a couple long trips this past summer, I was looking for any excuse to buy something more expensive. But never on the trips, did I wish for anything else. I guess I'm stuck with what I got.

I went to an MOA Getaway in Couer d'Alene a couple years ago and parked next to a rider with an RT. Beautiful bike. He made a comment about how in a few years, he'd be riding one like mine. The weight was getting to him. That was a thought in the back of my mind when I bought this F800GT also. Having a bike that only weighs 470 lbs, is so sweet when you're moving around in a parking lot or getting out of the garage. When I rode my last bike that weighed about 560 lbs, my one thought about the bike was "pig". The difference in weight was never an issue before, but once having a bike that weighs a hundred pounds less, is nice and very noticeable.

I sincerely hope you can find what you're looking for, without having to compromise.

daboo said:

If you actually use an electric windshield, it is worth getting. I found on the last three bikes of mine, that once I set the windshield height, I pretty much left it alone. For me, it would be a gimmick. It sounds like for you, it is quite useful.

It also helps that I am short. The ergonomics of the F800GT with bar risers and lowered foot pegs works quite well for me. You'll probably laugh when you read this, but I bought it with an eye for touring. Before, my bikes were used for commuting and long (12 hours) day trips. I can easily afford a more expensive bike, and when I did a couple long trips this past summer, I was looking for any excuse to buy something more expensive. But never on the trips, did I wish for anything else. I guess I'm stuck with what I got.

I went to an MOA Getaway in Couer d'Alene a couple years ago and parked next to a rider with an RT. Beautiful bike. He made a comment about how in a few years, he'd be riding one like mine. The weight was getting to him. That was a thought in the back of my mind when I bought this F800GT also. Having a bike that only weighs 470 lbs, is so sweet when you're moving around in a parking lot or getting out of the garage. When I rode my last bike that weighed about 560 lbs, my one thought about the bike was "pig". The difference in weight was never an issue before, but once having a bike that weighs a hundred pounds less, is nice and very noticeable.

I sincerely hope you can find what you're looking for, without having to compromise.

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I'm not looking for anything Chris, all I said was the only bike I'd leave RT for would be a lighter version of it w/ its vastly superior sport touring package. I think you've way over represented weight as a meaningful issue. This is why you saw the 88 y/o after he just traded in his K1600GT on a new K1600B--and he was rather short. Curb weight is really a minor issue as you age--the wet head forums are fully of 70+ riders on up. What really matters is balance and awareness, these bikes are managed w/ controls by finesse, knowledge, technique, not brute strength. And yes I came from F800GT so am well aware of the minor import of curb weight in the garage. Parking lots are managed by parking smart, so they pose no weight issues either. All this being said, if I could have the tech, comfort, performance of RT in a lighter form factor, sure why not, I hope it happens some day. If not, there is no finer 1-bike sport touring solution on the planet beyond R1200RT

ncpbmw1953 said:

I'm not looking for anything Chris, all I said was the only bike I'd leave RT for would be a lighter version of it w/ its vastly superior sport touring package. I think you've way over represented weight as a meaningful issue. This is why you saw the 88 y/o after he just traded in his K1600GT on a new K1600B--and he was rather short. Curb weight is really a minor issue as you age--the wet head forums are fully of 70+ riders on up. What really matters is balance and awareness, these bikes are managed w/ controls by finesse, knowledge, technique, not brute strength. And yes I came from F800GT so am well aware of the minor import of curb weight in the garage. Parking lots are managed by parking smart, so they pose no weight issues either. All this being said, if I could have the tech, comfort, performance of RT in a lighter form factor, sure why not, I hope it happens some day. If not, there is no finer 1-bike sport touring solution on the planet beyond R1200RT

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Pretty clear your are sticking with your RT ... we understand.

Not sure I agree about the weight issue though as I know a lot or riders who were able to keep riding by riding a lighter bike. It seems their leg strength reduced as they aged making simple things like getting a bike off the side stand tough. I have also seen this with female riders who were excellent riders but did not alway have the sheer strength to muscle a bike when needed. Fortunately I am not close to needing to go lighter or smaller. But I do like the RT because of its lighter weight as I do my GSA as well. Both being at or close to 600 pounds makes them handle very nicely.

gsinnc said:

Pretty clear your are sticking with your RT ... we understand.

Not sure I agree about the weight issue though as I know a lot or riders who were able to keep riding by riding a lighter bike. It seems their leg strength reduced as they aged making simple things like getting a bike off the side stand tough. I have also seen this with female riders who were excellent riders but did not alway have the sheer strength to muscle a bike when needed. Fortunately I am not close to needing to go lighter or smaller. But I do like the RT because of its lighter weight as I do my GSA as well. Both being at or close to 600 pounds makes them handle very nicely.

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Sure there will be some who need to do this, downgrade weight in order to continue riding. My guess is most of the folks driven to downgrade for weight will generally be shorter. When I bought my F800GT I had not ridden a bike for almost 30y, so the idea of a heavier bike was just too intimidating to me, and rightfully so as my skills and knowledge were low as a returning rider. 23K miles later I got the RT under me and almost instantly it became readily apparent its modest weight a non issue. That is in large part because of my 6'4" height. I have sarcopenia from over 30y of diabetes and chronic hepatitis. In nearly 30K miles now on RT I have yet to have to depend on 'sheer strength' to 'muscle' this machine. It's all balance and awareness, to avoid needing to depend on sheer strength. 6'4" tall gives me a major attribute to depend on. This is why I feel for me very likely there will be a very short window if any where lower weight will translate to more time riding. I'm already very weak, but thankfully, I'm 6'4" tall. I think Chris mentioned he is 5'6" tall, and that changes the calculus considerably all else being equal. His one RTW test ride report reveals this clearly:


I expect never to drop my RTW, so clearly we are 180 degrees apart with regard to curb weight and our ability to manage it. If I felt like Chris, I'd likely have also have tried to turn F800GT into a fully competent tourer. It really was never the right fit for me, as much as I appreciated what it offered. I sold it to an 80 y/o fellow in Redding CA, Ron Hanford, who was downgrading from his RT which he'd had for many years. We hooked up a week after he took delivery from the dealer where I had it on consignment, for coffee in Red Bluff. This was my first meeting with him. His very first words upon taking his helmet off at Starbucks on Antelope Road, coming off the freeway: "this bike wasn't made for riding on the freeway, was it?" A year later I saw he put a for sale poster up in the shop to help him sell the F800GT--he went back to his RT it turned out, then at age 81.

My main point is that I think it's unfortunate the full ST package that all of the luxury STs manifest aren't found on any middle weight machines, and I don't think there is anything necessary about this. When a brand finally appreciates this i believe it will be a good seller in the era of aging boomers.

gsinnc said:

Not sure I agree about the weight issue though as I know a lot or riders who were able to keep riding by riding a lighter bike. It seems their leg strength reduced as they aged making simple things like getting a bike off the side stand tough. I have also seen this with female riders who were excellent riders but did not alway have the sheer strength to muscle a bike when needed.

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At age 73 I also was starting to be concerned about what seemed to be the increasing difficulty I was having moving my RT around with muscle power. In the Fall of 2017, I had a talk with a personal trainer at the YMCA to which I belong in Boston. She created a list of nine exercises which I have been doing about 3X a week for a few months now. They're all on CYBEX weight machines. I have almost doubled the weights I'm using in the four months since I started. I took the RT out twice in late February for a total of about 100 miles of riding. Everything I did on the bike which required muscle power was substantially easier, leading me to conclude I'd really let myself go. I try to perform the routine every other day when I'm in Boston.

ncpbmw1953 said:

Sure there will be some who need to do this, downgrade weight in order to continue riding. My guess is most of the folks driven to downgrade for weight will generally be shorter. When I bought my F800GT I had not ridden a bike for almost 30y, so the idea of a heavier bike was just too intimidating to me, and rightfully so as my skills and knowledge were low as a returning rider. 23K miles later I got the RT under me and almost instantly it became readily apparent its modest weight a non issue. That is in large part because of my 6'4" height. I have sarcopenia from over 30y of diabetes and chronic hepatitis. In nearly 30K miles now on RT I have yet to have to depend on 'sheer strength' to 'muscle' this machine. It's all balance and awareness, to avoid needing to depend on sheer strength. 6'4" tall gives me a major attribute to depend on. This is why I feel for me very likely there will be a very short window if any where lower weight will translate to more time riding. I'm already very weak, but thankfully, I'm 6'4" tall. I think Chris mentioned he is 5'6" tall, and that changes the calculus considerably all else being equal. His one RTW test ride report reveals this clearly:

"Weight. It's there. The weight does disappear when riding, but was always in the back of my mind. I found myself choosing routes based on not getting into situations like a steep hill that I'd have to stop on, or a very sharp low speed turn to make. You'd definitely want to get some kind of protection for the engine heads and the panniers because I at least, would drop it. It would not be a question of "if", but of "when"...and how much it would cost."​

I expect never to drop my RTW, so clearly we are 180 degrees apart with regard to curb weight and our ability to manage it. If I felt like Chris, I'd likely have also have tried to turn F800GT into a fully competent tourer. It really was never the right fit for me, as much as I appreciated what it offered. I sold it to an 80 y/o fellow in Redding CA, Ron Hanford, who was downgrading from his RT which he'd had for many years. We hooked up a week after he took delivery from the dealer where I had it on consignment, for coffee in Red Bluff. This was my first meeting with him. His very first words upon taking his helmet off at Starbucks on Antelope Road, coming off the freeway: "this bike wasn't made for riding on the freeway, was it?" A year later I saw he put a for sale poster up in the shop to help him sell the F800GT--he went back to his RT it turned out, then at age 81.

My main point is that I think it's unfortunate the full ST package that all of the luxury STs manifest aren't found on any middle weight machines, and I don't think there is anything necessary about this. When a brand finally appreciates this i believe it will be a good seller in the era of aging boomers.

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Pretty sure most of us don't "expect" to drop our bikes but it can happen to any of us and is at time totally out of our control. Loose gravel, oil, anti-freeze, rainy slick gas stations all can result in a drop and it happens to the best most careful riders.

I too am 6'3" tall and have ridden over 20K on Harley Ultra Limiteds. There have been times when getting that sucker off the side stand was a big effort on a slight slope. Not so with any of my BMW's but weight is well weight.

Hope your luck continues and you have many safe and happy miles.

ExGMan said:

At age 73 I also was starting to be concerned about what seemed to be the increasing difficulty I was having moving my RT around with muscle power. In the Fall of 2017, I had a talk with a personal trainer at the YMCA to which I belong in Boston. She created a list of nine exercises which I have been doing about 3X a week for a few months now. They're all on CYBEX weight machines. I have almost doubled the weights I'm using in the four months since I started. I took the RT out twice in late February for a total of about 100 miles of riding. Everything I did on the bike which required muscle power was substantially easier, leading me to conclude I'd really let myself go. I try to perform the routine every other day when I'm in Boston.

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That is GREAT advice! I retired a year ago at 61 and just joined a gym for just that reason. Keeping in shape is more and more important as we age.

Is this thread about "New Bikes Age Fast" or Old Guys Age Fast? I somehow lost track.

p.s. I plan to tour this summer on a new G310GS.

gsinnc said:

Pretty sure most of us don't "expect" to drop our bikes but it can happen to any of us and is at time totally out of our control. Loose gravel, oil, anti-freeze, rainy slick gas stations all can result in a drop and it happens to the best most careful riders.

I too am 6'3" tall and have ridden over 20K on Harley Ultra Limiteds. There have been times when getting that sucker off the side stand was a big effort on a slight slope. Not so with any of my BMW's but weight is well weight.

Hope your luck continues and you have many safe and happy miles.

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Thanks Ed. I'm completely aware of these things, which is why I can say w/ confidence I'll likely not drop the bike as I've committed to keeping up the habits required to succeed. Now if suddenly become dizzy or faint, all bets are off of course, but that would be true on an F800GT or an R1200RT. If I ever drop the bike it will not be the end of anyone's world, including my own. I'm certain plenty of riders don't commit to what it takes. Moreover, it will not be brute strength the prevents a drop since I have no brute strength outside of reasonably strong legs--it's 100% technique and committing to it, and that is a conscious choice.

Here's a hypothetical for you Ed: if someone walked up to you and said, 'I'll give you 1000 to 1 odds you will drop your RT sometime during the next 100K miles. If you don't drop the bike, I'll give you $100,000. If you do drop the bike, you give me $100.' Would you take the bet? If so, would it change in any way how you manage low speed riding? IOW, do you always commit to maximizing risk reduction for dropping your bike?

PGlaves said:

Is this thread about "New Bikes Age Fast" or Old Guys Age Fast? I somehow lost track.

p.s. I plan to tour this summer on a new G310GS.

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