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Anti lock Brakes

Motorcycle and Bicycle Dynamics (a.k.a."phyics"). There's a pretty detailed description of braking and so-called load-transfer and why it happens.

There's no opinion here. The world works according to physical laws that you either understand or don't. These are facts and are determined by nature, not one's opinion.

And, yes, I am an engineer...you're welcome. :kiss
 
Motorcycle and Bicycle Dynamics (a.k.a."phyics"). There's a pretty detailed description of braking and so-called load-transfer and why it happens.

There's no opinion here. The world works according to physical laws that you either understand or don't. These are facts and are determined by nature, not one's opinion.

And, yes, I am an engineer...you're welcome. :kiss

First of all, thank you for being an engineer. Though virtually all professions mentioned on this Forum get beat up from time to time, we wouldn't even have motorcycles without guys like you.

Secondly, thank you for the, albeit, enormous article you referenced. After perusing it for some time, I had to smile that the conclusion for 'braking technique' on the final page consumed but one sentence.

Braking technique[edit]
Expert opinion varies from "use both levers equally at first"[94] to "the fastest that you can stop any bike of normal wheelbase is to apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel is just about to lift off the ground,"[92] depending on road conditions, rider skill level, and desired fraction of maximum possible deceleration.


As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's nearly impossible to alter opinions about how MOA members operate their motorcycles (a prevailing problem we, as instructors, find out when teaching anyone advanced classes here at the race track). Once a rider settles into a personal comfort zone, often nothing short of having applied his/her methods with disastrous results shakes their beliefs or skill set, and nudges them to objectively consider what we try to teach them.

With an enviable power-to-weight ratio, our very lives depend on how fast we can wrestle all that motorcycle speed down to zero, on two very small contact patches.

Engineers will continue to concentrate on ways (ABS, linked-systems, radial mounts, pad material, braided lines, tire construction, etc.) to apply the Laws of Physics to our motorcycles with max efficiency.

Riders should concentrate on as basic and all-inclusive (aka 'both brake controls') a method for consistent braking, so that regardless of a system's efficiency or it's failure to perform (malfunction), our survival habits (a skill set refined to muscle memory) will give us the best chance of avoiding or minimizing a crash. :thumb
 
Thank you for the article. As far as you being an engineer, I understand.... some of my best friends are recovering engineers. :)
 
Just in case

I'd like to think I can stop better than ABS on good pavement or on a pre planned aggressive stop. I want ABS brakes for the whop **** emergency stops.
 
I'd like to think I can stop better than ABS on good pavement or on a pre planned aggressive stop. I want ABS brakes for the whop **** emergency stops.

In a straight line maybe. Not so sure when leaned over. I think ABS Pro would be a winner (or butt saver) here.
 
A different need for ABS brake, on a gravel driveway ??

One of the reasons I sold my other bike was my gravel driveway. Can't pave it due to water run off, fairly steep and 150 ft. to a 90 deg. left turn, then the pavement. My Yamaha Majesty scooter has two disc brakes, with two brake levers, and auto trans., no problem there at all. For safety, both feet must be outriggers to slide down this one.

The BMW I am just now buying has ABS, my assumption is that with coupled front and rear brakes it would be more controlled. No access to the rear brake can be considered safe in most weather on this one. Is there a way to add some rear brake to the front brake, I thought ABS would do that automatically ?? Could I add a second cable to do both like my scooter??

Thanks, Cal
 
One of the reasons I sold my other bike was my gravel driveway. Can't pave it due to water run off, fairly steep and 150 ft. to a 90 deg. left turn, then the pavement. My Yamaha Majesty scooter has two disc brakes, with two brake levers, and auto trans., no problem there at all. For safety, both feet must be outriggers to slide down this one.

The BMW I am just now buying has ABS, my assumption is that with coupled front and rear brakes it would be more controlled. No access to the rear brake can be considered safe in most weather on this one. Is there a way to add some rear brake to the front brake, I thought ABS would do that automatically ?? Could I add a second cable to do both like my scooter??

Thanks, Cal
I don't know what you mean by "No access to the rear brake can be considered safe in most weather on this one".

Going downhill on gravel, I don't think the rear brake will be of much use anyway. Even modest braking at the rear wheel will just lock it up. If it were me, I would go down slowly with the front brake and take the 90 degree turn at near zero speed for the first few times. After I got used to it, I would probably pick it up and maybe even enjoy sliding around the corner, but not at first.
 
I don't know what you mean by "No access to the rear brake can be considered safe in most weather on this one".

Going downhill on gravel, I don't think the rear brake will be of much use anyway. Even modest braking at the rear wheel will just lock it up. If it were me, I would go down slowly with the front brake and take the 90 degree turn at near zero speed for the first few times. After I got used to it, I would probably pick it up and maybe even enjoy sliding around the corner, but not at first.

I would do just the opposite and use the rear brake in a downhill gravel situation. Locking the rear wheel is a highly controllable event, locking the front is much less so. There are reasons that experienced off road riders like to turnoff ABS and traction control when riding off pavement; having the ability to slide the rear tire is one.
 
I would do just the opposite and use the rear brake in a downhill gravel situation. Locking the rear wheel is a highly controllable event, locking the front is much less so. There are reasons that experienced off road riders like to turnoff ABS and traction control when riding off pavement; having the ability to slide the rear tire is one.

That makes sense. I am not an off-road rider. The only similar experience I have had was about a year ago. I stayed with some friends in a house out in the country. The driveway was about a kilometer long and up hill. The last 100 m of it was steep and covered with a couple of inches of pine needles. Coming down when I left, it was challenging to control the speed over that 100 m. Any braking on the rear wheel broke it loose. I based my suggestion on that stretch, but thinking back, I agree with you. For the rest of that driveway, the rear brake made for more controllable handling on the dirt.
 
Is there a way to add some rear brake to the front brake, I thought ABS would do that automatically ?? Could I add a second cable to do both like my scooter??

Thanks, Cal

ABS can only reduce brake pressure to a wheel that is skidding, it will never add pressure, and applying the rear brake has no effect on the front brake. It may be possible for a customizer to rig up a rear hand control (some racers and disabled riders have them), but you should be able to control the bike as it is. Using your feet as outriggers is a bad idea. Unless you are stopping every couple of inches, you can't really catch the bike if it slips, and you risk injury if you try. Take the hill in first gear, slowly enough to prevent speed build-up, fast enough to maintain balance with your feet on the pegs. Expect the bike to move around a bit, don't fight it, it really wants to stay up. A little front brake can help keep the speed low on the downhill stretch, but I'd probably be completely off the front brake at the bottom, to dedicate all the limited traction to turning. It would probably help if you could find some gravel roads to practice on that are flatter and straighter than your driveway, just to grow confident on loose surfaces.
 
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Or take a large bike off road class. I just completed another Rawhyde class last week.
Even the Introductory weekend class would make these driveways a non event.
Skid turns come during the Next Step or level II class but that would not be necessary.
 
You will not outbrake your ABS and the front brake is your only real brake.

Jorge Lorenzo, multi-time MotoGP World Champion recently noted in an interview regarding his new Ducati experience that during his Yamaha years he never used the rear brake.

It would be hilarious to compare myself to him, but I can say that I've never dumped a bike in a parking lot because I was using the front brake ... and I was because I never use the rear either.

I do recall from my grade school days when I got one of those new-fangled bicycles with front and rear hand brakes that I was sternly cautioned regarding the front wheel brake and how I could put myself over the handlebars using it.
 
:lurk

Some great responses, but it's interesting how much a braking thread has in common with an oil thread.

E.
 
I would do just the opposite and use the rear brake in a downhill gravel situation. Locking the rear wheel is a highly controllable event, locking the front is much less so. There are reasons that experienced off road riders like to turnoff ABS and traction control when riding off pavement; having the ability to slide the rear tire is one.

+1 on this answer.

be very gentle with the front brake
 
Beg to differ 36654. In our streetmasters course at the Hamburg, NY Nat'l Rally in 2016, one element of the training was to purposely engage the braking to activate the ABS to experience it, and then repeated exercises to stop as quickly as possible without engaging the ABS, and the Instructor stated that with practice, one can stop the bike quicker than when the ABS engages. It was a definite technique where you applied both brakes but focusing in the front, you applied it then progressively applied it harder. I'm not explaining it well but it worked and as we continued to practice, we all started stopping very quickly without engaging the ABS. It was an eye opener and great practice as I had never engaged the ABS before. I'm a proponent of continual training and try to take any kind of training course I can partake in every couple of years.

View attachment 65318

I beg to differ that one can stop a bike quicker without engaging the abs. the whole idea with abs and reason abs works so well is because the manufacture has tested and designed it to work at the perfect amount of tire slip usually about 14% there is no way we as humans can do what a computer controlled system can do.
 
I recall seeing more than one article in motorcycle magazines in which they reported that their test riders were able to stop in shorter distances without using ABS. It was not by great distances and they acknowledged that these were results achieved by exceptional riders making multiple attempts. In my opinion the vast majority of riders cannot beat the ABS results and do so while continuing to maneuver the bike to avoid a hazard. Rapid deceleration without fear of losing the front end while maintaining the ability to maneuver the bike is what ABS is all about. Without ABS trying to steer while having the front tire on the edge of traction requires great talent, training and experience. Marc Marquez lost his front end under braking over 15 times during race weekends last season, and he’s a bit above average.
 
I like ABS, however one can be spoiled by ABS and forget to use good common sense when you find yourself riding a bike without ABS (me) :banghead. I have become very accustom to riding a bike that has ABS, but I also have a KLR that doesn't. While riding the KLR (and it had been poring down rain), I forgot about not having ABS and got on my brakes a little harder than I needed to, suddenly finding myself and the bike perfectly perpendicular to the road and still moving :eek. Now that is an eye opener! I didn't crash, but it wasn't due to any skill on my part...just got lucky and tried to pretend it never happened or that I do that all the time just for fun :).
 
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