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Anti lock Brakes

bobw said:
.... I read where the front also activates the rear .....
Click to expand...
Many of the replies herein should be in a humor forum. To just answer your question read your Owners Manual on page 120, "Both front and rear brakes are applied when you pull the handbrake lever. The footbrake lever acts only on the rear brake."

From the humor sections:
-- yes, dragging the rear brake in a tight turn is a good thing
-- no, your 2017 rear brake is not linked to the front (as some prior year RTs were.)
-- yes, some pulsing in the rear pedal may be felt when using the front lever only. Normal.
-- no, I don't own an RT. I'm a horsepower junkie and would have an RR if it fit.
-- yes, a stoppie is possible with ABS. At least on a '96 R1100RS it was. Would have bought the tshirt if FastFrank sold one.

Oh yeah, one more thing, there's a ton of good info in this thread as well. It's the wading through that takes patience. :dance
 
CABNFVR said:
Many of the replies herein should be in a humor forum. To just answer your question read your Owners Manual on page 120, "Both front and rear brakes are applied when you pull the handbrake lever. The footbrake lever acts only on the rear brake."

-- no, your 2017 rear brake is not linked to the front (as some prior year RTs were.)

Oh yeah, one more thing, there's a ton of good info in this thread as well. It's the wading through that takes patience. :dance
Click to expand...

The integral brake system must therefore be unique to year/make/model. From my 2015 RT manual... “Your motorcycle is equipped with partially integral brakes. Both front and rear brakes are applied when you pull the handbrake lever. The footbrake lever acts only on the rear brake.”

The manual further states that the system is designed for normal street riding and that ABS only activates when the rider applies too much braking causing the wheel to lock.

So this is what I think is the bottom line... Highly skilled threshold braking is the most effective. ABS is there when you squeeze too hard too fast, like in a true panic stop. The non-professional rider is most likely the type of rider that will encounter this situation.

Is this devolving into an oil thread?
[emoji6]



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
greenwald said:
It's always discouraging that whenever a 'braking question' hits the keyboard, all kinds of exotic and disputable braking 'techniques' pop up, and too many members often end up more confused than educated.

The OP simply wondered if the pulsating feedback he was feeling was 'normal.' A simple YES - it is, was too much to hope for.

While I realize the 'anecdotal onslaught' of expertise will continue infinitum, the following advice is targeted for the segment of members not race-trained or race-qualified, and perhaps with only moderate experience.

When braking your motorcycle (at all times - do it the same way in the Walmart parking lot as out on the interstate), use both brakes with equal and greater pressure. While science has proven that 70% of your braking effectiveness is occurring up front (due to weight transfer), it's foolish to 'throw away' the 30% that's occurring behind you. You want 100% when you life is on the line.

I've investigated more than one motorcycle accident that could have been prevented or minimized by proper braking, but got compromised because the operator got fancy with his/her braking strategy. One method for city driving, a different method for interstates, pre-load the front brake to save a half-second when the deer runs out, no rear brake in town, no rear brake at all, etc., etc., etc. I've seen it all.

I think ABS on motorcycles is a great innovation. I and other LEO's were the test-bed when Harley started experimenting with ABS on their big street bikes back in 2000.

But at the end of the day, it will be consistency in how you brake (using both) that saves your bacon, regardless of how manufacturers are burning the midnight oil to have the bike do all the thinking for you, via ABS, linked systems, riding modes, traction control, etc.

Systems malfunction. Good habits never fail you. When (not if) the ABS has issues, all that stands between you and disaster is the skills that you made habits. And skills is what riding around balanced on two wheels is all about. It's our reliance on skills that makes motorcycling such a challenge in the first place - don't outsource them to technology without considering the consequences of not having a back-up plan (aka proper skills).

Riding a motorcycle is a "higher-level-of-risk activity," which we defend to the non-riding public thru superior awareness and a specialized skill set. It's what attracts so many of us to the adventure. :wave
Click to expand...

Thank you for this. :thumb
There is no substitute for skills, and the more sophisticated our vehicles get, the more lazy the drivers and riders tend to get too. I.E. parallel parking is now done electronically for you..God forbid you'd actually have to know how to all by yourself :hungover
Relying solely on electronic wizardry will sooner or later come home to roost.....
 
pkpilot said:
The integral brake system must therefore be unique to year/make/model. From my 2015 RT manual... “Your motorcycle is equipped with partially integral brakes. Both front and rear brakes are applied when you pull the handbrake lever. The footbrake lever acts only on the rear brake.”

The manual further states that the system is designed for normal street riding and that ABS only activates when the rider applies too much braking causing the wheel to lock.

So this is what I think is the bottom line... Highly skilled threshold braking is the most effective. ABS is there when you squeeze too hard too fast, like in a true panic stop. The non-professional rider is most likely the type of rider that will encounter this situation.

Is this devolving into an oil thread?
[emoji6]



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

We can only hope. :dance
 
pkpilot said:
ABS is there when you squeeze too hard too fast, like in a true panic stop. The non-professional rider is most likely the type of rider that will encounter this situation.
Click to expand...

That's a good point: a rider can evaluate his defensive driving skills by how many panic stops he has to make - he shouldn't have to make any, except in very unusual circumstances.
 
RIDERR1150GSADV said:
Thank you for this. :thumb
There is no substitute for skills, and the more sophisticated our vehicles get, the more lazy the drivers and riders tend to get too. I.E. parallel parking is now done electronically for you..God forbid you'd actually have to know how to all by yourself :hungover
Relying solely on electronic wizardry will sooner or later come home to roost.....
Click to expand...

Very true. :thumb

Actually, the OP's one and only question was answered by a gentleman from Toronto in the 2nd post on this thread.

Half of everything since has been damage control.
 
Last edited:
All the above responses have truth in them. I can only comment on my experience and training. An evasive manuever is always a split second move and, just my opinion, if your first move is the rear brake you might not have enough time to save yourself. As one who races, braking is always at or near the limit. I can still remember my licensing school instructor ask me if I was using my rear brake. I said “why, yes I was.” He just said “I don’t want to see that again today!” And I know there’s an acronym for the crusade to keep one’s finger on the front brake lever at all times so you can use it immediately in a crisis. As always, YMMV.
 
jswisc said:
All the above responses have truth in them. I can only comment on my experience and training. An evasive manuever is always a split second move and, just my opinion, if your first move is the rear brake you might not have enough time to save yourself. As one who races, braking is always at or near the limit. I can still remember my licensing school instructor ask me if I was using my rear brake. I said “why, yes I was.” He just said “I don’t want to see that again today!” And I know there’s an acronym for the crusade to keep one’s finger on the front brake lever at all times so you can use it immediately in a crisis. As always, YMMV.
Click to expand...

I ride a RS and rarely carry a passenger or bags. Even before braking, there's little weight on the rear wheel. Add the "weight" transfer associated with the vertical height of the rider and MC center of gravity, and my front wheel is carrying most of the weight and, therefore, will provide most of the braking (Braking Force = Effective load x Friction coeff). Fiddling around with that small amount of effective load at the rear wheel seems like a good opportunity to do little of importance.

Ride a cruiser or Goldwing......there will be some weight back there.
 
36654 said:
I ride a RS and rarely carry a passenger or bags. Even before braking, there's little weight on the rear wheel. Add the "weight" transfer associated with the vertical height of the rider and MC center of gravity, and my front wheel is carrying most of the weight and, therefore, will provide most of the braking (Braking Force = Effective load x Friction coeff). Fiddling around with that small amount of effective load at the rear wheel seems like a good opportunity to do little of importance.

Ride a cruiser or Goldwing......there will be some weight back there.
Click to expand...

Whether or not you intended, you touched upon a major problem within the motorcycle community: 'fiddling around' with braking.

If BOTH brakes are applied at the same time, with equal and greater hand/foot pressure, zero time is lost in efficient application.

As long as that rear wheel has any contact with the pavement, there will be braking friction.

Bikers need to stop trying to re-invent the act of braking, obey the laws of physics and use a proven method.

I know ................... good luck with that, given this crowd. :banghead
 
greenwald said:
Bikers need to stop trying to re-invent the act of braking, obey the laws of physics and use a proven method.
Click to expand...

Relative to the Laws of Physics, perhaps you can generate the free-body diagrams that will illustrate your hypothesis of "equal brake pressures to both wheels" will apply to all motorcycles.
 
36654 said:
Relative to the Laws of Physics, perhaps you can generate the free-body diagrams that will illustrate your hypothesis of "equal brake pressures to both wheels" will apply to all motorcycles.
Click to expand...

You're missing my point. It's the procedure that applies to all motorcyclists.

Sophisticated ABS or linked systems malfunction; surface conditions at the nano-second of braking might slightly favor the rear tire patch over the front one, despite the weight transfer; riders borrow a buddy's bike, rent one or get a shop loaner - variable tech on each model.

It's the consistency of your braking behavior, not the brakes themselves, that turns skills into habits that are there for you in the split-second of a life-saving urgent stop.

That methodology will always apply to all motorcycles.
 
I dunno since the OP asked about anti lock brakes, then i believe there have been enough studies to show that (ABS) is a technology that improves emergency braking for the vast majority of riders on the street. It is not that complex but really helps out in sketchy conditions. ABS is conceptually fairly easy to understand as well. The discussion has at times deviated to linked brakes which is a great topic and may be worthy of another thread.
 
36654 said:
You will not outbrake your ABS and the front brake is your only real brake.
Click to expand...
A highly skilled rider who keeps their skills fresh can outperform ABS more often than not. Even a merely "very good" rider confronted with the need to slow down or stop right now more than likely cannot - remember, they have exactly ONE chance to get it right. So I agree with you there.

I disagree with the other part of your other statement, though. Yes the front supplies 70% (or whatever) of total braking effort, and the link may add 15% of the remaining 30%. But the rider can, and should, use the rear brake to add that final 15%. Actually using the rear brake can make a significant reduction in braking distance, even with linked brakes. Try it - I have.
 
36654 said:
Relative to the Laws of Physics, perhaps you can generate the free-body diagrams that will illustrate your hypothesis of "equal brake pressures to both wheels" will apply to all motorcycles.
Click to expand...
Since pressure is the same in all directions in a fluid at a given point does this mean the ABS will work going backwards as well?:scratch

Actually it would if anyone could go fast enough backwards. The ABS rings "count" but they do not know direction. Interesting stuff. :dance
 
wbrownell9 said:
I disagree with the other part of your other statement, though. Yes the front supplies 70% (or whatever) of total braking effort, and the link may add 15% of the remaining 30%. But the rider can, and should, use the rear brake to add that final 15%. Actually using the rear brake can make a significant reduction in braking distance, even with linked brakes. Try it - I have.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what BMW teaches and has you perform.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
akbeemer said:
Engineers: Solving problems you never had in ways you do not understand. :thumb
Click to expand...

Kevin noted the laws of Physics, then couldn't produce the simple diagram that would indicate the basis of his claim. He could as well have claimed God's Law as the basis for his hypothesis.

But, back to the topic..........Now that we're down at 15% of the weight on the rear wheel (in some of these posts) during braking, I have to wonder how tuned these riders are at controlling their right foot for that 1/5-th of effort that they're exerting with their right hand?
 
bogthebasher said:
I dunno since the OP asked about anti lock brakes, then i believe there have been enough studies to show that (ABS) is a technology that improves emergency braking for the vast majority of riders on the street. It is not that complex but really helps out in sketchy conditions. ABS is conceptually fairly easy to understand as well. The discussion has at times deviated to linked brakes which is a great topic and may be worthy of another thread.
Click to expand...

IMHO, ABS is the greatest safety advancement since seat belts (in cars) and good helmets (for MC's).
 
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