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Thread: Anti lock Brakes

  1. #31
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    Bikers need to stop trying to re-invent the act of braking, obey the laws of physics and use a proven method.
    Relative to the Laws of Physics, perhaps you can generate the free-body diagrams that will illustrate your hypothesis of "equal brake pressures to both wheels" will apply to all motorcycles.
    Cave contents: 16 R12RS, 13 Toyota Tacoma, 03 Simplicity Legacy, 97 Stihl FS75, Dewalt DW625 & SawStop PCS175
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  2. #32
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    Relative to the Laws of Physics, perhaps you can generate the free-body diagrams that will illustrate your hypothesis of "equal brake pressures to both wheels" will apply to all motorcycles.
    You're missing my point. It's the procedure that applies to all motorcyclists.

    Sophisticated ABS or linked systems malfunction; surface conditions at the nano-second of braking might slightly favor the rear tire patch over the front one, despite the weight transfer; riders borrow a buddy's bike, rent one or get a shop loaner - variable tech on each model.

    It's the consistency of your braking behavior, not the brakes themselves, that turns skills into habits that are there for you in the split-second of a life-saving urgent stop.

    That methodology will always apply to all motorcycles.
    Kevin Greenwald - MSF Lead RiderCoach # 121656 (BRC,SBRC,IS,IME,SMARTrainer)
    Nationally Certified Law Enforcement Motor Officer (Ret.) / IBA Member #34281
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  3. #33
    FUKENGRUVEN SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    Engineers: Solving problems you never had in ways you do not understand.
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  4. #34
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    Engineers: Solving problems you never had in ways you do not understand.
    Touche!

    I'm outta' here for today.

    Flurries and white on the ground - yuk.
    Kevin Greenwald - MSF Lead RiderCoach # 121656 (BRC,SBRC,IS,IME,SMARTrainer)
    Nationally Certified Law Enforcement Motor Officer (Ret.) / IBA Member #34281
    Motorcycle/High Performance/Teen/Winter/ATV Driving Instructor - ROAD AMERICA Track

  5. #35
    Registered User RIDERR1150GSADV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    Engineers: Solving problems you never had in ways you do not understand.
    So true!
    MOA # 108516
    Current ride 2017 R1200RT White
    Past rides '04 R1150RT, '05 K1200LT, '06 R1150GSA

  6. #36
    Rocky Bow BMW Riders #197 bogthebasher's Avatar
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    I dunno since the OP asked about anti lock brakes, then i believe there have been enough studies to show that (ABS) is a technology that improves emergency braking for the vast majority of riders on the street. It is not that complex but really helps out in sketchy conditions. ABS is conceptually fairly easy to understand as well. The discussion has at times deviated to linked brakes which is a great topic and may be worthy of another thread.
    Ken Dittrick
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  7. #37
    Registered User wbrownell9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    You will not outbrake your ABS and the front brake is your only real brake.
    A highly skilled rider who keeps their skills fresh can outperform ABS more often than not. Even a merely "very good" rider confronted with the need to slow down or stop right now more than likely cannot - remember, they have exactly ONE chance to get it right. So I agree with you there.

    I disagree with the other part of your other statement, though. Yes the front supplies 70% (or whatever) of total braking effort, and the link may add 15% of the remaining 30%. But the rider can, and should, use the rear brake to add that final 15%. Actually using the rear brake can make a significant reduction in braking distance, even with linked brakes. Try it - I have.
    2016 R1200 GSA

  8. #38
    Registered User CABNFVR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    Relative to the Laws of Physics, perhaps you can generate the free-body diagrams that will illustrate your hypothesis of "equal brake pressures to both wheels" will apply to all motorcycles.
    Since pressure is the same in all directions in a fluid at a given point does this mean the ABS will work going backwards as well?

    Actually it would if anyone could go fast enough backwards. The ABS rings "count" but they do not know direction. Interesting stuff.
    "Have BMW. Will Travel"

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by wbrownell9 View Post

    I disagree with the other part of your other statement, though. Yes the front supplies 70% (or whatever) of total braking effort, and the link may add 15% of the remaining 30%. But the rider can, and should, use the rear brake to add that final 15%. Actually using the rear brake can make a significant reduction in braking distance, even with linked brakes. Try it - I have.
    That is exactly what BMW teaches and has you perform.


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  10. #40
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    Engineers: Solving problems you never had in ways you do not understand.
    Kevin noted the laws of Physics, then couldn't produce the simple diagram that would indicate the basis of his claim. He could as well have claimed God's Law as the basis for his hypothesis.

    But, back to the topic..........Now that we're down at 15% of the weight on the rear wheel (in some of these posts) during braking, I have to wonder how tuned these riders are at controlling their right foot for that 1/5-th of effort that they're exerting with their right hand?
    Cave contents: 16 R12RS, 13 Toyota Tacoma, 03 Simplicity Legacy, 97 Stihl FS75, Dewalt DW625 & SawStop PCS175
    1) My expectations are never low enough & 2) Incompetence is infinite ........David Brooks

  11. #41
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogthebasher View Post
    I dunno since the OP asked about anti lock brakes, then i believe there have been enough studies to show that (ABS) is a technology that improves emergency braking for the vast majority of riders on the street. It is not that complex but really helps out in sketchy conditions. ABS is conceptually fairly easy to understand as well. The discussion has at times deviated to linked brakes which is a great topic and may be worthy of another thread.
    IMHO, ABS is the greatest safety advancement since seat belts (in cars) and good helmets (for MC's).
    Cave contents: 16 R12RS, 13 Toyota Tacoma, 03 Simplicity Legacy, 97 Stihl FS75, Dewalt DW625 & SawStop PCS175
    1) My expectations are never low enough & 2) Incompetence is infinite ........David Brooks

  12. #42
    Registered User pappy35's Avatar
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    Motorcycle and Bicycle Dynamics (a.k.a."phyics"). There's a pretty detailed description of braking and so-called load-transfer and why it happens.

    There's no opinion here. The world works according to physical laws that you either understand or don't. These are facts and are determined by nature, not one's opinion.

    And, yes, I am an engineer...you're welcome.

  13. #43
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by pappy35 View Post
    Motorcycle and Bicycle Dynamics (a.k.a."phyics"). There's a pretty detailed description of braking and so-called load-transfer and why it happens.

    There's no opinion here. The world works according to physical laws that you either understand or don't. These are facts and are determined by nature, not one's opinion.

    And, yes, I am an engineer...you're welcome.
    First of all, thank you for being an engineer. Though virtually all professions mentioned on this Forum get beat up from time to time, we wouldn't even have motorcycles without guys like you.

    Secondly, thank you for the, albeit, enormous article you referenced. After perusing it for some time, I had to smile that the conclusion for 'braking technique' on the final page consumed but one sentence.

    Braking technique[edit]
    Expert opinion varies from "use both levers equally at first"[94] to "the fastest that you can stop any bike of normal wheelbase is to apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel is just about to lift off the ground,"[92] depending on road conditions, rider skill level, and desired fraction of maximum possible deceleration.


    As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's nearly impossible to alter opinions about how MOA members operate their motorcycles (a prevailing problem we, as instructors, find out when teaching anyone advanced classes here at the race track). Once a rider settles into a personal comfort zone, often nothing short of having applied his/her methods with disastrous results shakes their beliefs or skill set, and nudges them to objectively consider what we try to teach them.

    With an enviable power-to-weight ratio, our very lives depend on how fast we can wrestle all that motorcycle speed down to zero, on two very small contact patches.

    Engineers will continue to concentrate on ways (ABS, linked-systems, radial mounts, pad material, braided lines, tire construction, etc.) to apply the Laws of Physics to our motorcycles with max efficiency.

    Riders should concentrate on as basic and all-inclusive (aka 'both brake controls') a method for consistent braking, so that regardless of a system's efficiency or it's failure to perform (malfunction), our survival habits (a skill set refined to muscle memory) will give us the best chance of avoiding or minimizing a crash.
    Kevin Greenwald - MSF Lead RiderCoach # 121656 (BRC,SBRC,IS,IME,SMARTrainer)
    Nationally Certified Law Enforcement Motor Officer (Ret.) / IBA Member #34281
    Motorcycle/High Performance/Teen/Winter/ATV Driving Instructor - ROAD AMERICA Track

  14. #44
    FUKENGRUVEN SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    Thank you for the article. As far as you being an engineer, I understand.... some of my best friends are recovering engineers.
    Kevin Huddy
    Tm Pterodactyl MT Outpost

  15. #45

    Just in case

    I'd like to think I can stop better than ABS on good pavement or on a pre planned aggressive stop. I want ABS brakes for the whop **** emergency stops.

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