Couldn't believe my eyes

71243 said:

Why would you have disdain about something that does not harm....you?

Or is it my way or the highway?

Click to expand...

Oh Ron I know you know better. I already said people have the right to make stupid decisions and do stupid things. But I also have every right to note the stupidity with disdain. Of course it doesn't harm me directly; the indirect effect on taxes (police, fire, EMT costs), and insurance costs can't be precisely quantified but certainly are greater than zero.

PGlaves said:

This is simply not true. Take a cue from the Bedouins in the desert. Fully covered with loose, light colored clothing from head to toes. Shorts and a T shirt would kill them in short order.

There is excellent hot weather protective riding gear available. And cooling strategies that use controlled air flow and evaporative cooling. This will keep you cooler (while moving) than exposing skin to direct sunlight in shorts and T shirts.

Click to expand...

Oh, good call, from the Bedouins in the desert w/ 5% humidity. Why didn't I think of that! I said 'there are scenarios where it will be nigh to impossible to keep yourself cool enough...' and there are. How about a modestly hot ambient temp of 105F w/ 90% humidity which equates to a heat index of 185? Show me the gear that lets you survive that for any length of ride on black pavement in the sun. The problem, of course, is evaporative cooling doesn't work in high humidity conditions unless air flow is maximum, and even that starts to fail when available water/sweat declines in the face of blazing hot temperatures and air flow hitting your skin. I have fully vented summer riding gear and it's fine when temps approach 100F+ but that requires a cooling vest because insensible water loss is huge in the low humidity condition I live in.

Omega Man said:

I think it's referred to as a Nanny State

OM

Click to expand...

I refer to it as "common sense," based on Newton's law about objects in motion, and all that...

PGlaves said:

Oh Ron I know you know better. I already said people have the right to make stupid decisions and do stupid things. But I also have every right to note the stupidity with disdain. Of course it doesn't harm me directly; the indirect effect on taxes (police, fire, EMT costs), and insurance costs can't be precisely quantified but certainly are greater than zero.

Click to expand...

Paul,

How dare you apply common sense to this issue......

ncpbmw1953 said:

Oh, good call, from the Bedouins in the desert w/ 5% humidity. Why didn't I think of that! I said 'there are scenarios where it will be nigh to impossible to keep yourself cool enough...' and there are. How about a modestly hot ambient temp of 105F w/ 90% humidity which equates to a heat index of 185? Show me the gear that lets you survive that for any length of ride on black pavement in the sun. The problem, of course, is evaporative cooling doesn't work in high humidity conditions unless air flow is maximum, and even that starts to fail when available water/sweat declines in the face of blazing hot temperatures and air flow hitting your skin. I have fully vented summer riding gear and it's fine when temps approach 100F+ but that requires a cooling vest because insensible water loss is huge in the low humidity condition I live in.

Click to expand...

OK. Shorts and a T shirt are just perfect for you. Have fun. I personally would not ride at 105 degrees and 90% humidity. In fact, I wouldn't go to a place with 105/90 unless coerced to. But I am sure you do it all the time and enjoy it.

In 2003 I approached Las Vegas in 114 degree temperatures in the Iron Butt rally - the 11,000 miles in 11 days thing. I switched from my First Gear mesh jackets and pants, and rode on with my evaporative vest and Aerostich Roadcrafter pant and jacket and evap. vest. Much better. I welcome hearing about your experience in your shorts and T shirts.

Usually I just skip over these threads, and I haven't even posted on here in years - maybe more than a decade now? - but for some reason, here I am. Wait - I know why I'm here; it's because the topic of how much gear you should wear on a motorcycle is inherently egocentric and the irony is just amusing me too much this morning and I can't stop myself.

I was literally going to quote, in this reply, every single message in the first three pages of this thread where one of us said something about how one type of gear was less risky than another, and how anyone who chose more more risk was foolish...but by the time I finished clipping quotes from the first page this reply was already going to be about twenty inches long...

Here's the irony I see lacking from these threads: we all seem to accept that motorcycle riding is more dangerous than driving a car, and we all have ideas about what gear should be worn and how wearing less is "dumb" (I have those ideas myself, but I have to admit having ridden in less than the gear I think is apporpriate at times when I thought I'd be "ok" without it, I was too lazy to put it on, it was too hot to wear it...etc.), but we don't seem to get that all our variations on the theme are trumped by someone standing just a little further back looking at just a little more of the big picture and saying, don't those fools realize that motorcycling itself, from a risk management position, is a really poor decision?

...and if we want to feel like imposing our ideas, either by law or simply by threads like this saying - man, I can't believe folks would choose to not wear ... whatever we think they should wear - should we not also be more open to that person standing outside our motorcycle loving world saying, you know, you shouldn't really be riding a motorcycle at all?


Full disclosure, I feel the same way when I see someone riding in less gear than I think is appropriate, because, well, it just seems to be human nature to judge, and we tend to see ourselves as the standard for that judgement, but I *try* (and often fail) to remind myself that they aren't me, their life isn't my life, and some of my choices probably seem just as ludicrous to them (and they're probably right!).

I wanted to join the conversation but it's all been said

So, I just repeat what ya'll said.

Couldn't believe my eyes
Not that BMW riders are suppose to be superior
Open face is nice, you breed better, can show off your beard
This was actually a factor in my choosing to ride BMW motorcycles.
It makes me ashamed to see a BMW rider without a helmet.
Exactly!
Riding a motorcycle is all about risk management.
I know I was in Colorado a few weeks ago and it was weird
Do you support this irresponsible behavior for BMW riders?
I support minding my own business
I try not to get too excited about all this.
Oh Ron I know you know better.
Can someone please start an oil thread?
Since I am the OP on this thread, I want to revisit my question. P.S. Anyone using Mobil 1?

PGlaves said:

Oh Ron I know you know better. I already said people have the right to make stupid decisions and do stupid things. But I also have every right to note the stupidity with disdain. Of course it doesn't harm me directly; the indirect effect on taxes (police, fire, EMT costs), and insurance costs can't be precisely quantified but certainly are greater than zero.

Click to expand...

OK Paul, you have the "right" ....but why do it ? What other "recreation" / "lifestyle" do want regulate ? And just how does a person , riding a motorcycle in something less than ATGATT effect taxes? The police & all first responders are all in place to respond to what ever the accident may be. It cost no more to clean up a M/C crash than any other.

akbeemer said:

Ah, but it does. It negatively impacts members of my family who are first responders and medical professionals, wastes my tax dollars spent dealing with the results of dumb choices, damages my image among the general public, hurts my image with politicians who may react to their foolishness by passing more restrictive laws and increases the cost of my motorcycle and health insurance. Since I am not a proponent of mandatory helmet laws my disdain is a small price for the foolish to endure.

Click to expand...

" It negatively impacts members of my family who are first responders and medical professionals,"

I suggest they seek other employment. They get paid to do their job, not to tell me how to enjoy my ride....if my ride goes bad?....trust me I'll suffer much more than them.

Live & let live...within the laws of the land is all I'm promoting. I have been riding BMWs a couple'a decades now...And all I've heard through the years is how "snobbish" & "snooty" we riders are. And this is exactly why.....always ready to judge other rides/riders.

71243 said:

" It negatively impacts members of my family who are first responders and medical professionals,"

I suggest they seek other employment. They get paid to do their job, not to tell me how to enjoy my ride....if my ride goes bad?....trust me I'll suffer much more than them.

Live & let live...within the laws of the land is all I'm promoting. I have been riding BMWs a couple'a decades now...And all I've heard through the years is how "snobbish" & "snooty" we riders are. And this is exactly why.....always ready to judge other rides/riders.

Click to expand...

If these folks choose to ride without "appropriate" gear and are complying with the law, then that is their choice. They stand a great chance of becoming organ donors, which may help many in dire need (as long as their brains are not transplanted!).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

pkpilot said:

If these folks choose to ride without "appropriate" gear and are complying with the law, then that is their choice. They stand a great chance of becoming organ donors, which may help many in dire need (as long as their brains are not transplanted!).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

"They stand a great chance of becoming organ donors, which may help many in dire need (as long as their brains are not transplanted!)."


Ah,... a very sad but accurate point as well.

I have been blessed to be able to ride & enjoy my motorcycles in a way that pleases me over the years.

I wish the same for ALL other riders of any brand / style.

PGlaves said:

I personally would not ride at 105 degrees and 90% humidity. In fact, I wouldn't go to a place with 105/90 unless coerced to..

Click to expand...

Good for you, you finally understand the very simple point I made which you chimed in to challenge.

ncpbmw1953 said:

Good for you, you finally understand the very simple point I made which you chimed in to challenge.

Click to expand...

And if I may add....ya never know what ya will encounter even in a single day, on a long trip.

I feel a bit of shame with my first post to the MOA board being about a topic like not wearing a helmet, but I am here and posting. I had an incident that was basically this entire thread in real life. I am that exact person the original poster was talking about and here is my contribution to this thread/story... I live just over a half mile, .66 miles, to the local town square here in Georgetown, TX. I work from home so most days around 9:30 AM I hop on my bike to head over to the coffee shop on the square or meet my wife for lunch (she works on the square). I don't know what's more stereo typical, showing up to a coffee shop on a cafe racer or now on my GS...either way at least it's a local place and not Starbucks right..right...Anyways when I head over to the coffee shop, or lunch, I just hop on the bike with whatever I'm wearing for the day and go. No helmet, no special pants, no jacket, no boots, no gloves, etc. One day I was at the coffee shop waiting in line, this time I had my cool dude open face helmet with me. While waiting in line someone started giving me a hard time since I only had a helmet. He was giving me the typical dress for the ride, not the slide type of stuff and going into detail that any time his leg goes over the bike he is totally geared up, complete with high viz vest over his jacket, and that's how it should be. I kept explaining that I'm coming from a couple blocks away to work at the coffee shop and a trip through my neighborhood I'm OK with just my open face helmet (I left out the fact that most times I'm there with no helmet). That day I was going to meet the wife for lunch somewhere a bit off the square so I had my open face helmet and gloves with me. After the guy gave me the business for about ten minutes, I went on to working and enjoying my coffee. I was thinking what a jerk, blah, blah, blah. What boggled my mind was the way in which he was coming at me about it. It wasn't in the manner of "hey man all of us on two wheels need to look out for each other" way. It was like a scolding from an angry parent. After a few sips from my coffee I started to think, maybe he had some tragic incident in the past and let it go. I still don't get his reasoning, if I'm going to meet my friends for dinner .66 miles from my house I'm not going to wear what amounts to a fancy snow suit with a helmet to the restaurant. I know there is risk with not wearing gear and don't expect sympathy if there is an accident. I view it as a managed risk, as some others have pointed out in this thread. If I go anywhere that's a mile or more away I'm wearing at least my helmet and gloves. If I'm going on a ride I'm fully geared up; full face helmet, jacket, pants, gloves, and boots. If you are in a city/town area there is a bit of context for the situation that might missed. In my case people that see me pull up probably think I'm a loon for riding with out a helmet. However they don't know where I'm coming from, which has a huge impact on the risk assessment and my decision to not wear any gear. I don't think I have ever thought twice when I see someone else not wearing safety stuff. I guess I assume it's their decision to do whatever. I live in a state with no helmet law and think there should be one, yup I'm super hypocritical on that one. We actually had a vote recently on allowing lane splitting but Texas had to enact a helmet law and apparently people in Texas would rather sit in traffic with no helmets on since they voted down the helmet laws to gain lane splitting. I don't get that on either and lane splitting is probably a whole other can of worms with opinions. Anyways that was my first post to the MOA board.....

Welcome to the forum!
I wouldn't give it a second thought. Ride like you want ('cept nekked please)
Gary

I agree wholeheartedly, and welcome to the forum. It doesn't matter if it is .66 miles or 66 miles to that coffee shop, it is your choice.

I haven't been active here as much lately...life has gotten in the way in a big way this year...a whole other story

I know this topic has many opinions and a sway to one side as far as the typical owner here...all good and always interesting to read others perspectives. I'll prob run on , but here we go...

I was introduced to two wheels early in my life and have either had a bicycle, motorcycle or both for the majority of my life. Been riding bicycles again more than the motored ones this summer. I have a helmet and gloves, but for the most part basic cycling togs and a keen sense of controlling what I can control and doing my best to stay upright. I have so many pedal miles behind me and a few stories to make me wonder how I have lived this long

A get off on a bicycle at 20 MPH ( actually any speed) can be a major issue. My last get off was on a mountain bike on a slimy creek crossing and it was slow motion funny afterwards but a panic as I encountered the ground and water. I pretty much always will have a helmet as I am in that category of not needing that next concussion...think I have passed my safe limit as far as accumulated effects. A lot of skin is exposed in bicycle gear.

Now riding a motorized machine adds speed and weight to the equation and I dress accordingly for the most part. I was that 15 year old on a Honda 90 Scrambler in '72 with Chuck Taylor Hi-Tops and cut off blue jeans and a surf shop tee.Dads hated me!
We rode on oyster shell roads and the beach...you learned to avoid the oyster shelled roads to do stupid things on as they really tore body parts landing/sliding on them. I learned my limits early on ( well mostly) moving up in bike sizes,speeds and environments. I had a bowling ball heavy Bell helmet at 15...mostly because mom said so.Glad I did more than once.

I do a risk assessment basically everytime I decide what to ride and dress to my personal decision. Sometimes it's full on gear, except for the next peer pressure item( I say this in half jest so don't go off on that comment)...the air vest. My time will come I imagine...just like other safety items I include in most my rides.

I have some hi viz items and I also have some asphalt gray ones as well. Have light colored helmets and dark colored ones as well. Still will wear an open face helmet at times , slip on work boots and Wrangler jeans...yes, I am one of those guys.

I was one of the oddballs of my buddies owning a HD in my twenties wearing a helmet...and then sometimes not. I'm still here.I did get rid of the 70's Poofy Ski Jacket after I slid of a Mach III and it blew up like a cotton field after harvest...still here.
I got back on a HD around 2005 and was lax on gear more than not until I started hanging out with this group and trying to keep pace with H when we met...the peer pressure made me do things I had not done prior...happens both ways

I'm a MTGMTT guy and it's funny how most of us learned in basically nothing and lived to tell about it but now have a different set of standards...some from experience...some from just getting older and grumpier...happens.

I ride in cold and hot and acclimate every summer( which gets a little harder the older I get) to be able to gear up and get across the hot spots in this country at any time of year. Having been an electrical lineman had me very used to being out in all sorts of weather conditions.Being the caretaker of our acreage hasn't changed my outdoor time or need to survive.You have to be smart.
If folks just throw on ATGATT and expect to survive heat and humidity...well, most learn a hard lesson...you hope they learn and go outdoors during the day a few times before riding to Death Valley. Living working in climate controlled, then taking a cross country trip in Summer without building up to it is kind of dumb w/out prep...to me anyways.

I have been stuck in Houston traffic,temps and humidity in August living there in another life and in LV Nevada at rush hour due to my dumb a$$ decision to be somewhere in Utah quicker than I really needed to be.Crosssed the furnace of WTX and NM deserts enough to be schooled on heat management. Still here.
I have worn Vanson vented jackets with bee sized mesh, but learned the mesh has to be really managed or you will dehydrate very quickly...and get you stung when encountering that dang bee! For the most part I have a vented jacket and a cooling vest where it works and manage my hydration and diet on most hot days...except for those days I choose to make a different choice.

So, I guess I really quit trying to change the minds of folks who either know the risks, but choose to ride their ride...or the ones that cave to peer pressure and a will not happen to me attitude. I can only fix me. I have chosen not to lead/participate in a group ride when someone poses a risk to the group...sometimes it's over minimal gear or someone riding unsafely...gut feeling sometimes is a real thing.
I have a long time MSF instructor that sometimes picks up his bike and no gear in sight...he's old enough to make his own decisions. Another sport bike female came to get her S bike in Tri shorts and a sports bra, but did have her helmet...I may have shook my head at that one as it was Dusk and she had a way to gnce again her choice.


Oh, I use Castrol Oil these days...unless I am using BMW BP Bottled juice...or Mobil 1 V-Twin

pkpilot said:

If these folks choose to ride without "appropriate" gear and are complying with the law, then that is their choice. They stand a great chance of becoming organ donors, which may help many in dire need (as long as their brains are not transplanted!).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Perfect.

And seeing as how "you can't fix stupid," let's sure as hell not transplant it.

henzilla said:

Another sport bike female came to get her S bike in Tri shorts and a sports bra, but did have her helmet....

Click to expand...

Ok, the question here is...did you get a picture?

Signed,
Mobil 1 Guy

Not much summer left, don't you all somewhere to ride?