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Thread: Cam Timing and Valve check

  1. #46
    Addicted to curves azgman's Avatar
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    I got my tools from A&S today. I believe that the cam chain tensioner tool is essentially a torque limiter, correct? Do you just turn it until it clicks, kind of like a torque wrench?

    I should be doing my valve check in the next couple of weeks. So thanks for all of the posts and helpful info!
    MOA #107139
    RA #28511

  2. #47
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azgman View Post
    I got my tools from A&S today. I believe that the cam chain tensioner tool is essentially a torque limiter, correct? Do you just turn it until it clicks, kind of like a torque wrench?

    I should be doing my valve check in the next couple of weeks. So thanks for all of the posts and helpful info!
    Yes you turn it until you hear three clicks. Do not expect them to be symmetric. By that I mean it is not click, click, click. It could be click, half a turn click, click. Or click, click a 1/4 turn, click. If you look at it and watch it it is very fine thread as it spins out so it does not take much once you are there.

    Also make sure the TDC tool is in. You see how it is spring loaded just make sure the A tip is buried in the flywheel when you hear a click. If you doubt it go around again. I can say when it is locked into the flywheel you can try and rock the rear wheel and it will not move because the A pin is buried in the 8mm flywheel hole.

    Use the end of the cam lobes position and the two stamps on the end to know how close you are to TDC and then you can expect the click. The two stamps should be top and bottom in relation to the ceiling and the floor.

    Again if you have the JVB DVD you can clearly see this in his explanation of checking valves. His DVD got me started on all this and gave me the confidence to know there is no black art to servicing the WetHead. His DVD is worth the cost and I suggest anyone wanting to service their own bike buy the DVD, as a primer to checking cam position, and other services on these bikes.

    Good luck and if you need anything else let me know.

    Please post the results so we can keep going here. As more people acquire the tools we should get a pretty good handle on this.

    I am pretty excited as in a couple of weeks I will check a 84K bike and really curious how that looks and turns out. And I may get to take a ride to Maryland and check another one. The more I do the more I see no pattern or rhyme or reason to them or the sensor being off. I am truly beginning to believe if you are happy with the way your bike runs and sounds the cams are probably ok. However if you are having slow starts or vibration your cams may need looked at, or on the starts, the cam position sensor may be off.
    2015 R 1200 RT LC
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    Dark Side 205/50/ZR17

  3. #48
    Addicted to curves azgman's Avatar
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    Thanks, I have the JVB video (on USB!). I will report back when I have completed the valve check. I also have a friend with a '15 RT that will need one soon.
    MOA #107139
    RA #28511

  4. #49
    Registered User Hodadd's Avatar
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    Great thread guys.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Juvenal
    (Who watches the watchers)

  5. #50
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Well I got to check a 14 RT with 5000 miles on it today.

    Both sides in time perfect. Cam sensor dead on.

    Complaint on the bike is needs 2nd attempt to start, surging, and perceived lack of power.

    I felt I could help with the 2nd start, but cam position sensor was dead on.

    Since it has never been on the computer except at 600 mile we both feel the software is the issue on this bike. I seem to remember surging and a software update. It is scheduled for a computer hook up so we will see on tha

    I recommend some Techtron and copious amounts of ridding the snot out of it

    So the recap:

    15 RT 12,000 miles, Left off real bad, right off also. Cam sensor on.
    16 GS 12,000 miles, Right side off pretty well and left side off. Cam sensor way out.
    16 RT 6000 miles, Right dead on, Left off. Cam sensor on.
    16 RT 12,000 miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor on.
    15 GSA 12,000 Miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor perfect.
    14 RT 18,000 Miles , Dead on both sides. Cam sensors dead on.
    14 RT 5,000 miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor perfect.
    2015 R 1200 RT LC
    San Marino Blue
    Dark Side 205/50/ZR17

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by LFarling View Post

    I recommend some Techtron and copious amounts of ridding the snot out of it
    You might consider using some methanol as well--seems like condensation could develop in that scenario too. I picked up some bad gas from a Chevron station and while it took me home the next morning it wouldn't start at all. I was about to call for a tow to the local dealer and then one more try and it started up. It was sluggish to start for several days until I thought of using HEET brand of fuel additive w/ methanol and she began to start up immediately again. I used a couple of applications and within a few more starts whatever was ailing it finally permanently resolve.

  7. #52
    Registered User RIDERR1150GSADV's Avatar
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    It's a good idea to use REC 90 ethanol free gas from time to time..
    MOA # 108516
    Current ride 2017 R1200RT White
    Past rides '04 R1150RT, '05 K1200LT, '06 R1150GSA

  8. #53
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff.

    2015 RT 87,000 miles.

    The owner and I used three methods to make sure of TDC

    First tried and true, dowel piston up as far as it will go to a repeatable area, mark the dowel at that point, and repeat as needed.

    Second was we found top TDC with the BMW TDC tool, pulled the tool and I used a green paint pen to mark center of the hole. Dumb luck the pen fit perfect center so we had a nice center green dot to see.

    Third we found TDC with the BMW TDC tool. But, and a BIG BUTT here, there was a sloppy fit, it says yes I have sprung, but if I rocked the wheel just a bit I would get a good snap, I am buried into the flywheel.

    Post 373 here by Emoto has had me wondering and puzzled. As I stated in a earlier thread after Emoto said something, I had experienced this but not to any extent I found alarming or annoying.
    http://advrider.com/index.php?thread...937091/page-20
    This is where I learned about this stuff and a report of a incorrect TDC tool, or flywheel issue.

    Post 390 and 391 are my latest posts.

    This bike was that from Hell, so why we had to use Three Methods to be sure of TDC.

    We brought it around and looked at the center green dot from the paint pen and then bumped a bit forward and then a bit backward. It looked to BOTH of us that there was a slight ramp or a oblong part of the hole just forward of the hole!

    I am not sure if someone forgot the TDC tool in and spun the wheel and it somehow messed that up. I would doubt it as I am pretty sure that is a hard steel flywheel. A machining miss? Or a optical illusion?

    NO other bike I have touched did this.

    Thing is, if it was a light click, or a manipulated "full lock", the Cam Alignment Tool FIT. Everything was in and the dowel was at the proper mark.

    And if you want to be technical we used JVB Productions way of locating TDC off the cam marks so we really knew when we were getting close to the hole and the green dot on the flywheel so we utilized FOUR ways to TDC!

    Interested in any thoughts on this from others and what they think. I will add another visual check of the TDC hole in the flywheel on every one I do now. I will post the score and some other bits in another post.
    2015 R 1200 RT LC
    San Marino Blue
    Dark Side 205/50/ZR17

  9. #54
    Registered User RIDERR1150GSADV's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing! Itís amazing that so much detail can go into making sure our bikes run well.
    MOA # 108516
    Current ride 2017 R1200RT White
    Past rides '04 R1150RT, '05 K1200LT, '06 R1150GSA

  10. #55
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    I was asked to start looking at cam lobes. I never had really looked and "nailed" each and every cam lobe. I have on this one. Looking for maybe any signs of cam lobe issues from being not hardened enough. The idea is to run a finger nail across the lobes to see if you can feel anything. If you can it would be bad. You do see shinny areas but tyou can not feel them.

    On this bike the dealers mechanic must have been on crack when he was measuring valve clearance. He had some exhaust at 40 when they were 35 and had a intake marked 17 that was 15.

    So I feel I should mention that with 87K his valves were:
    Left Intake 16 16 Exhaust 36 35
    Right Intake 16 15 Exhaust 36 37

    This kind of bears out the longevity that is often talked about valve settings and shim stability.

    So the recap:
    15 RT 12,000 miles, Left off real bad, right off also. Cam sensor on.
    16 GS 12,000 miles, Right side off pretty well and left side off. Cam sensor way out. Adjusted
    16 RT 6000 miles, Right dead on, Left off. Cam sensor on.
    16 RT 12,000 miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor on.
    15 GSA 12,000 Miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor on.
    14 RT 18,000 Miles , Dead on both sides. Cam sensors on.
    14 RT 13,000 Miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor on.
    15 RT 87,000 Miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor was off. Adjusted
    2015 R 1200 RT LC
    San Marino Blue
    Dark Side 205/50/ZR17

  11. #56
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Left side camshafts - minimal adjustment. Really a small bit out but adjusted into spec.
    Right side camshafts - no adjustment needed

    Interesting Valve measurements at 1600 miles Exhaust are at the lowest tolerance!

    Left side
    Intake - Front 0.15, Rear 0.14
    Exhaust - Front 0.35, Rear 0.34

    Right side
    Intake - Front 0.12, Rear 0.14
    Exhaust - Front 0.34, Rear 0.35

    Cam Lobes felt fine.

    TDC tool buried itself in this flywheel. I mean it went to the end of travel on the TDC tool. There was no doubt of the click and TDC on this bike.

    So the Recap:
    15 RT 12,000 miles, Left off real bad, right off also. Cam sensor on.
    16 GS 12,000 miles, Right side off pretty well and left side off. Cam sensor way out. Adjusted
    16 RT 6000 miles, Right dead on, Left off. Cam sensor on.
    16 RT 12,000 miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor on.
    15 GSA 12,000 Miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor on.
    14 RT 18,000 Miles , Dead on both sides. Cam sensors on.
    14 RT 13,000 Miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor on.
    15 RT 87,000 Miles, Dead on both sides. Cam sensor was off. Adjusted
    16 GSA 1,688 Miles Right dead on. Left off ever so slightly, Adjusted. Cam Position Sensor on.
    2015 R 1200 RT LC
    San Marino Blue
    Dark Side 205/50/ZR17

  12. #57
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    I have been thanked in another Forum and by PM on a few more.

    I wanted to post my response so people know what and why I do this. It seems fair to "disclose" my thoughts and intentions.

    Well I am just doing what others before me have done. Maybe just more of them, but others have helped me gain this knowledge.

    I just want to say that this is great fun meeting people doing this task. I have no set fee and I work for what people donate to me for my time and expenses. I have yet to pay 1/2 the cost of tools but it does not matter to me. I just bought a Snap On 16mm box end torque adapter for 28 bucks. Not because I am such a tool whore, but because I can not in good conscious use a crows foot at 65Nm on someones bike. So I bought the tool to make sure I do no harm.

    Through this I have met some very nice people and really that is the reward, and of course getting to lay hands on so any bikes. I will keep doing this as long as people ask and I am able to. It is great to gather the stats and see what is what with these bikes.

    However the mystery of the flywheel and the TDC tool not snapping into some bikes is perplexing and I want to find out what is what there. As I said this 16 GSA snapped to the bottom of the cut out on the tool each and every time. Perplexing to say the least.

    I am glad people find the information useful. And I will keep going.
    2015 R 1200 RT LC
    San Marino Blue
    Dark Side 205/50/ZR17

  13. #58

    Applied Torque with 2 inch extension

    Hi Lee,
    Just an item that you need to take into account now that you have a new/different extension for tightening the bolt on the end of the cam that holds the gear on.

    The open ended crows foot we used on my bike was an effective length of about 3/4 of an inch, and I was not too concerned about the slight difference of applied torque. I calculate that it was about 3 Nm over torqued, but now that you have a 2 inch extension, it's something that should be taken into account.

    If you use a similar 3/8in drive digital torque wrench to the Snap-On wrench we used on my bike, the marked reference mark for the calculated torque is 13.5 inches. This distance is needed to make the adjustment to the desired torque on the bolt.

    If using my torque wrench now, I calculate that I'd need to set the desired torque to 56.6 Nm to actually not over torque the bolt that hold the cam to the gear.

    Screen Shot 2017-10-18 at 8.33.01 AM.jpg

    Screen Shot 2017-10-18 at 8.34.39 AM.jpg

  14. #59
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    I hope I have interpreted the information correctly and have used it for a lot of years.

    I am pretty sure that at 90 degrees I am pretty close to what is needed.

    On the crowfoot I did not worry at all as I felt is was negligible especially when one considers the variance among torque wrenches.

    However your advice and information is something I and anyone else using a adapter for anything on a torque wrench should pay attention too.

    What I have done is first converted the 65 NM to Foot Lbs. It comes out to 48 foot lbs.

    Then I needed to find the length of my lever or in this case my Torque Wrench. Not sure of this as a lot of the diagrams are confusing to me. What I think is correct is measure from the center of the 3/8" stud on the torque wrench to the middle of the handle. In my case it is 15".

    Then the length of the adapter is 2"

    I used this calculator: https://www.engineersedge.com/manufa..._extension.htm
    And my setting on my torque wrench for 48 foot lbs should be 42.35 foot lbs or 57.41 Nm

    So I will just set to 57.5 Nm and keep it in line and have at it.
    Last edited by LFarling; 10-18-2017 at 04:39 PM.
    2015 R 1200 RT LC
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    Dark Side 205/50/ZR17

  15. #60
    Tourmeister gr8ridn2's Avatar
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    As stated if using an adapter on a torque wrench there is no need for a setting adjustment if the adapter is at a 90 degree angle to the wrench handle. This is the method I have used for many years. If a 90 degree angle can not be used a a certain situations then the formula to calculate corrected torque is applicable.
    2018 R1200RT W - Continent traveler
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