Design for Maintenance?

Do BMW riders still care about designing for ease of maintenance?
It was an important purchase consideration 30 years ago, but maybe not so much anymore.

Many modern cars, even inexpensive economy models, are designed to run 100k between brake and coolant flushes, spark plug, belt and air filter changes. About the only maintenance required is an occasional oil change and tire rotation, and they still run 200k. This is viewed as a good selling point for cars, anyway.

So why should any modern motorcycle require a $400 service every 6,000 miles?

For those that prefer to do much of their own maintenance, why does the design require a $300 gs911 (or a trip to the dealer) just to reset the service reminder? Or special tools to remove the front wheel or change spark plugs? Why are 3 wrenches of 2 types required to remove the skid plate on some GS's every oil change?

I'm curious about forum opinion.
Do you think the current BMW maintenance design philosophy is unavoidable given the technology, or perhaps intentional to keep service $$$ rolling in after the initial sale, or is it simply a non-issue because BMW purchasers today aren't as concerned about the maintenance aspect of the designs like they were 30 years ago?

Comments?

This has come up before...I thought I'd find at least one thread 4 years ago:

https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?68908-Motorcycle-Maintenace-Costs-versus-Automobile

Some food for thought to get things rolling

20774 said:

This has come up before...I thought I'd find at least one thread 4 years ago:

https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?68908-Motorcycle-Maintenace-Costs-versus-Automobile

Some food for thought to get things rolling

Click to expand...

Curt,

Thanks for the link.
I think one might be able to come up with reasons why motorcycles in general might require more maintenance than cars, but BMW used to design for EASE of maintenance and used that as a selling point.
Recent designs don't seem to consider this anymore and I for one miss that.

Other manufacturers have addressed this to some extent. Honda Goldwings have a service interval of 36,000 miles and I think Yamaha has models at 24,000. Even Guzzi is using a single throttle body on the small block twins which simplifies maintenance. Scooters have had service reminders for some time. Most require a simple botton push to reset.

The technology certainly exists to make things simpler for the purchaser/owner.

I sometimes wonder why BMW doesn't make more of an effort to make it so.

Maybe nobody really cares ...

A couple thoughts...

• I get the feeling once you move up to the boxer engine variants and the K1300 model, it is like going to a very expensive restaurant. If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. There is a totally different feeling on the F800Rider forum versus the BMW MOA forum. It extends from the motorcycle to the farkle choice to the choice of riding gear...and to who does your maintenance, you or the dealer.
• The F800GT that I own, seems designed for ease of maintenance. Panels come off in minutes using screws. There are no tabs to break off. Oil drain plug and filter are right out where you can easily get to them. Valves don't need adjusting for quite some time. The belt drive needs no maintenance till replacement, and many owners are finding replacement doesn't need to happen till around 32,000 miles. It's very much a bike you can ride and park...great for commuting. And while I bought a GS-911...the maintenance reminder is so unobtrusive that you could ignore it easily for the few moments on start up that it appears.

Chris

43912 said:

but BMW used to design for EASE of maintenance and used that as a selling point.
Recent designs don't seem to consider this anymore and I for one miss that.

Click to expand...

I'm very familiar with the concept of ease of maintenance...given the stable of BMWs that I own! The motto of the Airheads Beemer Club is "Simpli Fi".

I can't really speak to the length of service nowadays, but clearly as cars and motorcycles have gotten more sophisticated, it's not a backyard mechanic's job anymore. Many things can be put in that category - computers for one, along with their operating systems. If it's not designed for any kind of maintenance, then it's a "throw away" item. That seems to be not so much driven by the designers/engineers but rather by the consuming public...they don't want to have to deal with taking things back for repair, so the designers take that cue and come up with the products.

Asking these sort of questions could get you in deep, deep trouble. You've been warned.

43912 said:

BMW used to design for EASE of maintenance and used that as a selling point.
Recent designs don't seem to consider this anymore and I for one miss that.
Maybe nobody really cares ...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure this is true, at least for the "R" bikes. I do all the routine maintenance on my 2002 Oilhead and plan to do the same on my 2014 wethead. Certainly the wethead has some very complex systems that I would not want to repair myself but for the routine maintenance compared to the oilhead the wethead:

1. Needs no throttle body sych
2. Valves seem to rarely if ever need adjustment
3. Brake fluid is MUCH easier to change
4. Clutch fluid does not need changing

I have only done the 6k service so far but ease of maintenance IS important to me and is part of the reason I like R bikes. The list of maintenance tasks for each service is much shorter for the wethead than the oilhead. BTW I pay the dealer $15 to reset the maintenance light.

akbeemer said:

Asking these sort of questions could get you in deep, deep trouble. You've been warned.

Click to expand...

It was an honest question, but I do apologize if anyone was somehow offended by it.
It's also good to learn there ARE others that consider maintenance to be an important design consideration.

Maybe I should just give up on the modern stuff and find a clean old K75 ...

43912 said:

... Do you think the current BMW maintenance design philosophy is unavoidable given the technology, or perhaps intentional to keep service $$$ rolling in after the initial sale, or is it simply a non-issue because BMW purchasers today aren't as concerned about the maintenance aspect of the designs like they were 30 years ago? ...

Click to expand...

My suspicion has always been that it is as bit of all three. I think where you'd get the most disagreement is where the actual ratios would fall as opposed to if any of those three are part of the equation.

43912 said:

... For those that prefer to do much of their own maintenance, why does the design require a $300 gs911 (or a trip to the dealer) just to reset the service reminder? Or special tools to remove the front wheel or change spark plugs? Why are 3 wrenches of 2 types required to remove the skid plate on some GS's every oil change? ...

Click to expand...

My feeling is that there are two factors at work here. First, it drives business to the dealer to some degree, and second, a common failure in German Technology/engineering is to over-complicate things and have too narrow a focus on things without allowing sufficiently for the real world. BMW have been quilty of this for decades in both their cars and bikes, but are not alone in doing so.

A good example is the E36 series BMW cars. They had on-board diagnostic displays in the dash to show various things including a light bulb failure. etc. Nice idea, but their execution was terrible. The problem was that one of their smart but "painfully low on common-sense" engineers set the fault codes for bulb failure to a very narrow range that would only behave itself (most of the time) if you replaced that blown taillight bulb with the same silver-socketed bulb. If you used the more garden variety brass socketed bulbs of the day the system noticed that the resistance was out of the "normal" range for the silver-socketed bulb and would throw a code. The same thing would happen if you fit wiring for a trailer, the smal change in resistance almost always thrrew fault codes.

43912 said:

... Many modern cars, even inexpensive economy models, are designed to run 100k between brake and coolant flushes, spark plug, belt and air filter changes. About the only maintenance required is an occasional oil change and tire rotation, and they still run 200k. This is viewed as a good selling point for cars, anyway. ...

Click to expand...

On this point, I would disagree with the contention that these are acutally valid options. My very strong feeling is that these are purely accounting/marketing service intervals designed to allow the manufacturer to pretend that the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) is lower than, or as low as, a competitors.

There is no combination of brake system and brake fluid that I am aware of that is completely safe for anywhere near that mileage if it is done in a typical fashion (ie - 6-7 years). Mileage has virtually nothing to do with brake fluid lifespan, but moisture absolutely does and the moisture will not only reduce the effectiveness of the brake fluid but also corrode the brake system itself.

I have a car that has the 100k spark plug interval, but the plugs don't work near their best after about 75k, it is simply that the expense of changing them is high enough that it out-weighs the reduction in fuel economy and performance.

BMW, for their cars, many years ago went to "Lifetime" differential fluid, tranny fluid, and something else (can't recall if it was coolant or something else) and also pushed out their oil-change intervals. Anyway, they have since back-tracked on some (not all) of this. But it doesn't matter, there is no differential fluid that is truly acceptable for the full lifetime of a car, but it will keep the differential alive and happy for 150-200k and then you'll start to see failures. This happen to the BMW cars which had the exact same diffs they used to run and that used to give 200-300k lifespans. It is easy to see / surmise what happened, BMW's "Lifetime" diff fluid was referring to the lifetime of the warranty and the original, and perhaps the second ownership, so the diff fails with the second or third owner and they (BMW) can blame the previous owner rather than admit they told a bold-faced lie to increase sales. It isn't nice, but that is what I believe they did.

I still like and realy enjoy BMW products, but there are some things that they do for marketing that don't help the long-term owner who wishes to do their own maintenance, however, I think they likely hold their own quite well in comparisons to theoverall field in these matters. With the exception perhaps to Harly using hydralic lifters which gets away completley from valve adjustments and a few other interesting approaches by other manufacturers. Overall thogh, I love my RTW and feel that it is well within acceptable limits for maintenance requirements.

irish said:

I'm not sure this is true, at least for the "R" bikes. I do all the routine maintenance on my 2002 Oilhead and plan to do the same on my 2014 wethead. Certainly the wethead has some very complex systems that I would not want to repair myself but for the routine maintenance compared to the oilhead the wethead:

1. Needs no throttle body sych
2. Valves seem to rarely if ever need adjustment
3. Brake fluid is MUCH easier to change
4. Clutch fluid does not need changing

I have only done the 6k service so far but ease of maintenance IS important to me and is part of the reason I like R bikes. The list of maintenance tasks for each service is much shorter for the wethead than the oilhead. BTW I pay the dealer $15 to reset the maintenance light.

Click to expand...

Agreed, but you missed a big one:

5. No need to take the bike completely apart to lube the clutch splines.

Switching to a multi-plate wet clutch is a very big deal and reduces maintenance requirements.

Oh, and there is no longer a need to change the alternator belt since there is no belt any more.

Harry

Voni and I have a combined 1.95 million miles. We could never afford that at dealer labor costs. Never. So, you may quote me on this: buy repair manuals and buy wrenches.

"A good example is the E36 series BMW cars. They had on-board diagnostic displays in the dash to show various things including a light bulb failure. etc. Nice idea, but their execution was terrible. The problem was that one of their smart but "painfully low on common-sense" engineers set the fault codes for bulb failure to a very narrow range that would only behave itself (most of the time) if you replaced that blown taillight bulb with the same silver-socketed bulb. If you used the more garden variety brass socketed bulbs of the day the system noticed that the resistance was out of the "normal" range for the silver-socketed bulb and would throw a code. "

I fixed that with larger gauge wiring for the brown (ground) wires in my two E36's. It also stopped a lot of incorrect indications for bulb failures.

I guess I would somewhat disagree that my 2011 R1200R wasn't designed for easy service. Routine maintenance items such as fluid changes are simple and easily accessed. Valve adjustment interval is similar to other brands and again, very accessible. Bulb changes, simple. I will agree that the service light reset is an annoyance. I've experienced a couple of seal failures requiring removal of the transmission and installation of a new clutch, although a daunting task for a novice mechanic, now that I've done it, I can appreciate how simple and elegant the setup is and wouldn't hesitate to perform it in the future.

Much of the $400 dollar 6k maintenance charges at least in my neck of the woods are not connected at all with the design of the cycle but just the fact that a dealer and mechanic need to make a living. Mechanic's need wages they can feed a family on, dealers need to pay workers comp, state taxes, federal payroll taxes, social security tax, medicare tax, health insurance, maybe a small retirement set aside, liability insurance, utilities, local property tax's and other business expense. Shop labor rates of 85 to 100 per hour aren't out of the question and the above list of things can add 50 to 100 percent to base wage rates. Couple that with the cost of OEM parts and associated markups and $400 bucks ain't what it used to be.

43912 said:

It was an honest question, but I do apologize if anyone was somehow offended by it.
It's also good to learn there ARE others that consider maintenance to be an important design consideration.

Maybe I should just give up on the modern stuff and find a clean old K75 ...

Click to expand...

Relax - that response was certainly "tongue in cheek" and elicited some grins - especially for those of us who have waded thru this Forum longer than you have, and have the bruises to prove it.

And it's sad that you would even have to consider settling for an almost 'vintage' bike to avoid a current model and a current warranty.

My general belief is that BMW stopped building bikes designed for easy maintenance a long time ago, and for many of the reasons others have put forward so far in this thread.

Consumer inpatience, revenue for the corporation, revenue for the dealerships, hyper-compact design, obsession with weight-shaving, less emphasis on durability, throw-away parts, excessive electronics, etc.

I liked the analogy that compared BMW ownership to fine dining - buckle up - it's going to be an expensive ride, beyond the initial purchase. If you have to ask "How much?" for maintenance and repairs, you probably should have bought an alternate brand. BMW - "Bring my wallet!" - comes with the territory.

43912 said:

It was an honest question, but I do apologize if anyone was somehow offended by it.
It's also good to learn there ARE others that consider maintenance to be an important design consideration.

Maybe I should just give up on the modern stuff and find a clean old K75 ...

Click to expand...

Just josh'n.....

akbeemer said:

Just josh'n.....

Click to expand...

Hey, I was one of those who was offended. I'm going to my safe space now and will be seeing my psychoanalyst this afternoon. Damn you, 43912.

Ok, maybe I'm kiddin', too.

Well, this thread certainly hasn't gone the way I expected...

What I had hoped for was something along the lines of "Heck yeah! I'd love to see BMW beat the competition and design a bike with a 50,000 mile service interval. I'd buy that!"

But no.

FWIW, If it was a boxer, I'd buy one, anyway.

43912 said:

Maybe I should just give up on the modern stuff and find a clean old K75 ...

Click to expand...

as the owner of two K75s's...not the perfect solution. any K75 you find is 20-30 years old and will require a major nose to tail "renovation" to be reliable...but then it will run for another forever!

43912 said:

Well, this thread certainly hasn't gone the way I expected....

Click to expand...

The subject was beat to death a few months ago and most of us are out riding now.

mlytle said:

as the owner of two K75s's...not the perfect solution. any K75 you find is 20-30 years old and will require a major nose to tail "renovation" to be reliable...but then it will run for another forever!

Click to expand...

In fact, I've been told by more than one person that you can find more K75 motors that are still working well, than K75 bikes (for very little money). Not because the bike was bad at all, just because they just don't wear out compared to most everything else.